Mystery Illness
- Thread starter Jeanne - Simme Valley
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
regolith
Well-known member
Sounds similar to ryegrass staggers - something we see from early summer onwards, caused by endophyte toxicity.
Lots of toxicity stuff may present similar symptoms though.
Head nodding, shaking is one of the first signs, increased nervousness, agitated cows can go 'down' and be unable to rise until they've calmed down. "Death rare except through misadventure" - there's the possibility of falling into water or down a cliff. It seems to either cause heat stress or make heat stress worse - though it's hard to tell, because when the signs are seen the whole herd is affected. Symptoms of low magnesium could be confused for ryegrass staggers. Write .co.nz on your google addess if you want better information than my brain can currently supply. Must be winter for you guys, so I can't imagine it'd be grazed fungal toxins?
Lots of toxicity stuff may present similar symptoms though.
Head nodding, shaking is one of the first signs, increased nervousness, agitated cows can go 'down' and be unable to rise until they've calmed down. "Death rare except through misadventure" - there's the possibility of falling into water or down a cliff. It seems to either cause heat stress or make heat stress worse - though it's hard to tell, because when the signs are seen the whole herd is affected. Symptoms of low magnesium could be confused for ryegrass staggers. Write .co.nz on your google addess if you want better information than my brain can currently supply. Must be winter for you guys, so I can't imagine it'd be grazed fungal toxins?
kenny thomas
Well-known member
I think Jeanne has had a little winter. 
A few days ago she said it had snowed 73" so far this winter.
A few days ago she said it had snowed 73" so far this winter.Victoria
Well-known member
How are his ears? Any swelling in the ear drum(s) or of the ears?
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
This doesn't really sound like the likely cause of your calf's issues, but I found this and this may have been what the neurologist read about in the past.
Simmental encephalomyelopathy, which is seen in association with behavioral change (eg, aggression or dullness), has an onset in Simmental and Simmental-cross calves between 5-12 mo of age. The gait abnormality progresses from pelvic limb ataxia to recumbency with opisthotonos, and death occurs within 6 mo. It has been reported in the USA, UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Characteristic lesions consist of symmetric necrosis in the caudate nuclei and in other areas of the brain and spinal cord. Similar multifocal lesions are seen in 1- to 4-mo-old Limousin and Limousin-cross calves (with additional signs of blindness) in Australia and England, and in Angus calves in Australia and the USA.
Simmental encephalomyelopathy, which is seen in association with behavioral change (eg, aggression or dullness), has an onset in Simmental and Simmental-cross calves between 5-12 mo of age. The gait abnormality progresses from pelvic limb ataxia to recumbency with opisthotonos, and death occurs within 6 mo. It has been reported in the USA, UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Characteristic lesions consist of symmetric necrosis in the caudate nuclei and in other areas of the brain and spinal cord. Similar multifocal lesions are seen in 1- to 4-mo-old Limousin and Limousin-cross calves (with additional signs of blindness) in Australia and England, and in Angus calves in Australia and the USA.
OP
OP
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Regolith - it is most likely NOT grazed fungal toxins :lol: because, Kenny is absolutely correct. It has been very wintery outside. Actually, we really didn't have hardly any snow on the open fields until just the past few days, we've received maybe 6" of soft falling snow. Need another 6" to make a nice "cushion" for the cows. But, no, no grazing. Now, I'm not saying it couldn't be some kind of toxin in the baleage. But, you would think others might be affected - or it would "wear off"???
Victoria - yes, vet checked the inside of his ears really really close, thinking an ear infection, but nothing showed. And he doesn't "cock" his head or drop an ear. He is very bright eyed & alert, but far from being "excited". He is very friendly and cooperative :shock: I don't mean larthargic, just not a spook like you would expect after 2 weeks being put in the chute 2X a day & got shots.
Commercialfarmer - that may be what he read and was looking for.
Sizmic - don't think we discussed lead poisoning - but this farm has been in operation for 30+ years with nothing different located in that paddock. ?? don't know - anything's possible.
Kenny - weathermen were dissappointed - they only broke the all time record for the month of December - not the all time record for all months :shock: It sounds aweful, getting that much snow, but we didn't get any great amount at one time, and if we did, it blew so bad, the snow ended up in the woods & ditches. Plus in between the major snow falls - we got 1 & 2" of RAIN :shock: not what I wanted.
Victoria - yes, vet checked the inside of his ears really really close, thinking an ear infection, but nothing showed. And he doesn't "cock" his head or drop an ear. He is very bright eyed & alert, but far from being "excited". He is very friendly and cooperative :shock: I don't mean larthargic, just not a spook like you would expect after 2 weeks being put in the chute 2X a day & got shots.
Commercialfarmer - that may be what he read and was looking for.
Sizmic - don't think we discussed lead poisoning - but this farm has been in operation for 30+ years with nothing different located in that paddock. ?? don't know - anything's possible.
Kenny - weathermen were dissappointed - they only broke the all time record for the month of December - not the all time record for all months :shock: It sounds aweful, getting that much snow, but we didn't get any great amount at one time, and if we did, it blew so bad, the snow ended up in the woods & ditches. Plus in between the major snow falls - we got 1 & 2" of RAIN :shock: not what I wanted.
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
Why is it always the good ones? Neurological exam findings are key here. If this calf is mentally bright and cranial nerve reflexes are completely normal, it would suggest a disease process only limited to the cerebellum (coordination center) or nervous system below the brain. If the calf is at all mentally off- dull, depressed, circles, head presses, or has reflexes of the nerves coming directly from the brain (cranial nerves), then the list of potential causes changes.
If you really wanted to know and cost wasn't a factor- Equine Surgeons often have MRI capability and a sample of his spinal fluid could be obtained for pathology review that might provide some clues. But this would take some significant dinero, require anesthesia and have no guarantees in isolating the cause which is generally hard to justify on this little guy. If he doesn't recover, a full necropsy would be significantly less expensive and likely insightful as you have discussed.
Common diseases occur commonly (of course). And common diseases should have heavier consideration. But in reality, the number of diseases and disorders that are potential hear are numerous. I am not a large animal veterinarian, but with the understanding I have of their neurological disorders:
With his age, makes me wonder a little about congenital disease (born with) such as malformed region of the brain responsible for coordination- the cerebellum (Cerebellar hypoplasia) and can be seen with in utero infection of BVD or Bluetongue virus and I believe maybe a toxin. However, he appeared normal up to 2 months of age? Which makes a defect present at birth less likely, but completely impossible as sometimes defects are just more noticeable as they age.
Very possible in my mind would be cellular diseases of the neurons (storage diseases), and early death of the cells (cerebellar abiotrophies) where destruction occurs after birth and effects function. Are the tremors present when he is asleep?
Myelin (a coating for a nerve cell) is like the rubber that insulates the wire on an electric cord. It keeps the electrical signal moving the right direction at the right speed. Diseases that cause defects in this coating or destruction of this coating are sure suspect in this calf. Fever could be associated with an immune mediated disease (body sees a portion of itself as foreign- like an infection). Pantothenic acid deficiency
Also significant tremors can cause the increased temp, but you said they were only subtle to begin with and temp was 104 if I remember correctly.
Toxicities. Would be very concerning at the onset of symptoms. At this point, they would sure be lower on my list of options. Most of the toxins I can think of that when ingested at high enough concentration to cause tremors generally have other obvious symptoms as well such as mental dullness, blindness, etc. Blindness is often seen with lead, as with the other causes of polioencephalomalacia (Thiamine deficiency and Sulfur toxicity). Unless structural/cellular damage to the brain is done such as the ones above, toxicities generally go one way or the other- you see resolution of the symptoms or the animal worsens. They generally don't just hand out for weeks with tremors and act like the world is otherwise okay unless they only affect the peripheral nervous system.
Ionophore toxicity
Organophosphate toxicity- intermediate form.
Infectious causes- Seems plausible with the fever.
As previously mentioned- Abnormal parasitic migration. Wrong host species for the infecting parasite, or right species for the parasite but in the wrong place. Be careful not to OD the little guy on ivermectin as toxicity is possible and could then confuse the situation.
Nervous coccidiosis- not likely in this case and there is a thought that the neuro signs may not be due to coccidia but to some other co-infection.
Neospora- not classic symptoms
Viral/bacterial infection that caused brain tissue scaring/abscess. However, if the calf seems very mentally alert and normal other than the tremors, the lesions would have to be pretty focal.
Enterotoxemia Caused by Clostridium perfringens Types B and C
Sporadic bovine encephalomyelitis (SBE- chlamydia)
Listeriosis
Haemophilus and Pasteurella infections
Fungal disease
With no other symptomatic cattle- an "active" viral infection (of the ones I can think of) would be questionable at best. Previous- in utero infection of the Dam as previously mentioned is possible. BVD, IBR
Immune mediated disease- where the body attacks itself. Demyelinization disorders (previously mentioned) or sterile abscesses can be formed in the central nervous system.
Trauma-
Just a public reminder for everyone though I highly doubt it is likely here, but Rabies should always be considered in any animal that has unusual neurological signs, especially in the early stages. Good idea to limit exposure to unnecessary people and for sure the kiddos.
Maybe this will help narrow it down for you. :?:
Are the tremors present when he sleeps? Do they worsen when he is excited/nervous? Any abnormal movement of his eyes? Do his facial features- ears, mouth, eyes have even motion and position?
If you really wanted to know and cost wasn't a factor- Equine Surgeons often have MRI capability and a sample of his spinal fluid could be obtained for pathology review that might provide some clues. But this would take some significant dinero, require anesthesia and have no guarantees in isolating the cause which is generally hard to justify on this little guy. If he doesn't recover, a full necropsy would be significantly less expensive and likely insightful as you have discussed.
Common diseases occur commonly (of course). And common diseases should have heavier consideration. But in reality, the number of diseases and disorders that are potential hear are numerous. I am not a large animal veterinarian, but with the understanding I have of their neurological disorders:
With his age, makes me wonder a little about congenital disease (born with) such as malformed region of the brain responsible for coordination- the cerebellum (Cerebellar hypoplasia) and can be seen with in utero infection of BVD or Bluetongue virus and I believe maybe a toxin. However, he appeared normal up to 2 months of age? Which makes a defect present at birth less likely, but completely impossible as sometimes defects are just more noticeable as they age.
Very possible in my mind would be cellular diseases of the neurons (storage diseases), and early death of the cells (cerebellar abiotrophies) where destruction occurs after birth and effects function. Are the tremors present when he is asleep?
Myelin (a coating for a nerve cell) is like the rubber that insulates the wire on an electric cord. It keeps the electrical signal moving the right direction at the right speed. Diseases that cause defects in this coating or destruction of this coating are sure suspect in this calf. Fever could be associated with an immune mediated disease (body sees a portion of itself as foreign- like an infection). Pantothenic acid deficiency
Also significant tremors can cause the increased temp, but you said they were only subtle to begin with and temp was 104 if I remember correctly.
Toxicities. Would be very concerning at the onset of symptoms. At this point, they would sure be lower on my list of options. Most of the toxins I can think of that when ingested at high enough concentration to cause tremors generally have other obvious symptoms as well such as mental dullness, blindness, etc. Blindness is often seen with lead, as with the other causes of polioencephalomalacia (Thiamine deficiency and Sulfur toxicity). Unless structural/cellular damage to the brain is done such as the ones above, toxicities generally go one way or the other- you see resolution of the symptoms or the animal worsens. They generally don't just hand out for weeks with tremors and act like the world is otherwise okay unless they only affect the peripheral nervous system.
Ionophore toxicity
Organophosphate toxicity- intermediate form.
Infectious causes- Seems plausible with the fever.
As previously mentioned- Abnormal parasitic migration. Wrong host species for the infecting parasite, or right species for the parasite but in the wrong place. Be careful not to OD the little guy on ivermectin as toxicity is possible and could then confuse the situation.
Nervous coccidiosis- not likely in this case and there is a thought that the neuro signs may not be due to coccidia but to some other co-infection.
Neospora- not classic symptoms
Viral/bacterial infection that caused brain tissue scaring/abscess. However, if the calf seems very mentally alert and normal other than the tremors, the lesions would have to be pretty focal.
Enterotoxemia Caused by Clostridium perfringens Types B and C
Sporadic bovine encephalomyelitis (SBE- chlamydia)
Listeriosis
Haemophilus and Pasteurella infections
Fungal disease
With no other symptomatic cattle- an "active" viral infection (of the ones I can think of) would be questionable at best. Previous- in utero infection of the Dam as previously mentioned is possible. BVD, IBR
Immune mediated disease- where the body attacks itself. Demyelinization disorders (previously mentioned) or sterile abscesses can be formed in the central nervous system.
Trauma-
Just a public reminder for everyone though I highly doubt it is likely here, but Rabies should always be considered in any animal that has unusual neurological signs, especially in the early stages. Good idea to limit exposure to unnecessary people and for sure the kiddos.
Maybe this will help narrow it down for you. :?:
Are the tremors present when he sleeps? Do they worsen when he is excited/nervous? Any abnormal movement of his eyes? Do his facial features- ears, mouth, eyes have even motion and position?
cow pollinater
Well-known member
I have a Charolais heifer out of a crossbred cow that has the same symptoms as what you've described. It's barely noticeable most of the time and then she gets a shiver and kind of goes week in the legs for just a second. It seemed to be worst when she was about six months old and has since backed off to almost never.
I see about six different vets a week through my regular job and none of them have any suggestions. We've ruled out all of the usual suspects.
Normally I'd kill her and not think twice but she's far and away my best of five in her same group so I'm searching for answers to make sure it isn't a genetic defect as I'd like to breed her. I have a full sister to her on the ground that I'm watching closely for similar symptoms.
I see about six different vets a week through my regular job and none of them have any suggestions. We've ruled out all of the usual suspects.
Normally I'd kill her and not think twice but she's far and away my best of five in her same group so I'm searching for answers to make sure it isn't a genetic defect as I'd like to breed her. I have a full sister to her on the ground that I'm watching closely for similar symptoms.
OP
OP
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
WOW - WOW you have me amazed! Little bit of training somewhere in your background.
Don't know what to answer to that post. Thank you so much for taking the time.
I guess I can not say that I have observed him sleeping. I will have to try to do that. I would have to be pretty sneeky.
As said, he kinda reminds me of someone with Parkensens (sp?) Disease. When he's standing still, he's not really still - little twitches here & there & head always slightly moving. He looks like he is always adjusting his muscles to keep himself balanced???
We & vet were suspect of blindness, because he tends to carry his head slightly higher than normal. But, he examined him closely & we observed him closely for any sign of blindness - nothing. Sees very well.
One night (I think two nights after vet was here) he was obviously worse. Was falling over easily, couldn't turn without slipping, losing his balance. Hubby said he was excited that night. So, maybe he is worse when excited??? It seems like he has "adjusted" to his condition?? does that make sense?
He does everything like all the other calves. Great eater, sucks great & always chowing down on the baleage. Goes in and out of the calf shed. Not afraid to go off on his own. He was standing at the mineral feeder by himself today, helping himself - no other cattle around him.
Vet did offer to do a spinal, but said that was iffy. Sometimes at this size/age it is difficult to obtain the fluid. But, my concern was the expense & we opted not to do it.
Vet & his friend would like him alive to start testing him & do the necropsy. Such a hard decision. We would love to KNOW, but just can't make the decision to give up on him. It won't cost us anything. We would just have to haul him to Cornell Univ. And it's not that I'm concerned about losing out on this "great bull" - just hate to have a cow not raise a calf.
Hubby read your post also, quite impressive!!! Wants me to print it out for our vet, but I don't want to insult him.
So, are you going to tell us your "credentials"?
Don't know what to answer to that post. Thank you so much for taking the time.
I guess I can not say that I have observed him sleeping. I will have to try to do that. I would have to be pretty sneeky.
As said, he kinda reminds me of someone with Parkensens (sp?) Disease. When he's standing still, he's not really still - little twitches here & there & head always slightly moving. He looks like he is always adjusting his muscles to keep himself balanced???
We & vet were suspect of blindness, because he tends to carry his head slightly higher than normal. But, he examined him closely & we observed him closely for any sign of blindness - nothing. Sees very well.
One night (I think two nights after vet was here) he was obviously worse. Was falling over easily, couldn't turn without slipping, losing his balance. Hubby said he was excited that night. So, maybe he is worse when excited??? It seems like he has "adjusted" to his condition?? does that make sense?
He does everything like all the other calves. Great eater, sucks great & always chowing down on the baleage. Goes in and out of the calf shed. Not afraid to go off on his own. He was standing at the mineral feeder by himself today, helping himself - no other cattle around him.
Vet did offer to do a spinal, but said that was iffy. Sometimes at this size/age it is difficult to obtain the fluid. But, my concern was the expense & we opted not to do it.
Vet & his friend would like him alive to start testing him & do the necropsy. Such a hard decision. We would love to KNOW, but just can't make the decision to give up on him. It won't cost us anything. We would just have to haul him to Cornell Univ. And it's not that I'm concerned about losing out on this "great bull" - just hate to have a cow not raise a calf.
Hubby read your post also, quite impressive!!! Wants me to print it out for our vet, but I don't want to insult him.
So, are you going to tell us your "credentials"?
OP
OP
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Mostly grass w/ some clover
OP
OP
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Well, I couldn't answer that. Our cattle receive a custom blend of minerals for our farm. And he does eat the minerals. Is that what you mean? Our baleage was excellent quality hay - no drought. We put up our hay later than dairymen do around here, because we don't want/need as high a protein as a dairyman.sizmic":njh9o6rc said:
Victoria
Well-known member
Well, there goes that idea then. Probably a brain thing, hope he makes it for you.
Commercialfarmer
Well-known member
sizmic":6uickl0w said:
Grass tetany does occur with lush grass, green cereal crops and silage, but it doesn't really fit well with this guy. Mostly seen in lactating cows due to loss in the milk. Less severe animals initially have appetite loss, walk stiffly, and overreact to touch and sound. More severely affected ones have severe convulsions.
Jeanne,
The neurologist at Cornell would be an ideal resource- says a lot about your vet that he is pursuing this for you. I like neurological cases and I had too much time on my hands at work the other day. I was just thinking out lou... eh, how does this phrase go when your typing? My ramblings would likely be a waste of your vet's time.
Keep us posted on what you find out. Post a video of him if you get a chance.
OP
OP
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
The Amer Simm Assn wants a video of him also. I know my camera will take a video, but when I transfered it to a SD card for a "picture frame" the pictures worked but not the video. So, Ill have to work on that.
He's just as happy as can be out & about. Still looks awesome - bummer! (well, bummer because he doesn't have much potential to make a BULL!!!)
He's just as happy as can be out & about. Still looks awesome - bummer! (well, bummer because he doesn't have much potential to make a BULL!!!)
