IF we want cattle that are balanced and fertile or as Dr. Bonsma said, "...the body of the highly fertile cow is in beautiful proportion...". Then at what point do we see say muscling or stomach capacity or anything that indicates sub fertility? Is there such a point?
Muscling, Ballanced Cattle and Fertility
- Thread starter ABrauny
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WalnutCrest
Well-known member
I'm not sure I understand. Wanna try again?
Here is a cow that has feminine features, muscling and a good spring of ribs. She is not carrying extra weight, but is in good shape. Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the bulls she has produced. It is proof that a feminine cow produces the best bulls. If you look at the pictures of many dams of good bulls, you will see that this is often the case.
http://sydgen.com/females/5084.html
Not that many cows have have this many bulls under their belt.
I do have a cow that shows a heavier bullish look, but she had my 2nd best bull. I only kept 2 bulls that year, and sent the rest to the sale barn. I am very picky about what I keep as a bull. My best bull was by a more feminine cow.
http://sydgen.com/females/5084.html
Not that many cows have have this many bulls under their belt.
I do have a cow that shows a heavier bullish look, but she had my 2nd best bull. I only kept 2 bulls that year, and sent the rest to the sale barn. I am very picky about what I keep as a bull. My best bull was by a more feminine cow.
ABrauny":3n01gq59 said:
Bonsma's stuff is great, but they are guidelines in a way. If one has intimate knowledge of what they are working with I am sure there are exceptions and caveats. Yes a cow can be muscular yet feminine. I think if you see it you will recognize it. Things like "stomach capacity" need to be seen through the prism of the environment she lives in. Our wet lush grass requires more capacity than say desert SW grass.
I assume you are seeking out a more maternal type?
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
It is my belief that more feminine cows have more masculine sons ... on average ... than more masculine cows ... AND ... that more masculine bulls sire daughters that are more feminine than the daughters of more feminine bulls.
It is my contention that hormonal balance / function are at least moderately heritable and it is a trait worth pursuing.
It is my contention that hormonal balance / function are at least moderately heritable and it is a trait worth pursuing.
As often the case here, arguments result from a lack of strict agreed upon definitions of terms. When you say feminine, I think most think dairy like as that is the ultimate end selection for extreme femininity.
I totally agree on sex character resulting in the best of each other's opposite. With that said a cow can have bulk and muscle while being feminine. Within reason of course. Once again knowing your breed and line is a must.
I totally agree on sex character resulting in the best of each other's opposite. With that said a cow can have bulk and muscle while being feminine. Within reason of course. Once again knowing your breed and line is a must.
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
Good point, re: the impression that dairy = femininity.
I'm not a proponent of beef cows that look like dairy cows ... what I am a proponent of is a beef cow that can get bred for the first time at 12-15 months of age, carry to term, calve, nurse, wean a good calf, and breed back to calve a second time before their 3rd birthday ... with no fancy inputs under my management, while having a good attitude while doing their job.
Thanks for encouraging me to clarify my intent.
I'm not a proponent of beef cows that look like dairy cows ... what I am a proponent of is a beef cow that can get bred for the first time at 12-15 months of age, carry to term, calve, nurse, wean a good calf, and breed back to calve a second time before their 3rd birthday ... with no fancy inputs under my management, while having a good attitude while doing their job.
Thanks for encouraging me to clarify my intent.
TexasBred
Well-known member
In my case the ugliest and most worthless cow in the pasture is the one that breeds back and nothing bad ever happens to those kind.
TexasBred
Well-known member
:lol: :lol: :lol: Fertile Myrtle huh? Not pretty...just available and willing.JWBrahman":134ttw82 said:
Rafter S
Well-known member
WalnutCrest":3cthwyyi said:
To back up your point, hasn't there been research that bulls with larger scrotal measurements have daughters that are more fertile?
polledbull
Well-known member
yes , large scrotal bulls sire better, more fertile daughters , and early maturing females , so they say.
Nesikep
Well-known member
I can't say too much on how the masculinity of the bulls affects his daughters, but in my herd, I did find that some of the best looking bull calves come from the more feminine cows.
What I found too is that if I look back at the first cow in 3 of my bloodlines, the two biggest (1600lb herf crosses) cows that were built like sherman tanks have the (great great grand) daughters that are skinny racks now. The one that was a skinny build produced what is now a moderately sized animal with meat all over it... and far better udders, feet, and longevity as well, because I haven't gotten to the point were I have any great great grand daughters yet.. For those who remember the bull calf I sold last year, He was from that line, and his mother was about a Frame 6 cow, not too heavy a build, and feminine.. He was thick, long, and smooth, and all her other bull (well, steer) calves were all great animals.
What I am wondering about scrotal measurements (if they affect the daughter's fertility), is "is there a 'right' size".. We've pretty much all had the replacement heifers that surprised us with a calf when they were 16 months... In the thread about that newborn calf that had the bad front legs, apparently that mother wasn't much over a year... Are we going too far in one direction and causing problems with calves being bred far too early? Like any of you I wouldn't want a bull with a peanut sack down there, but if he can do his job right, that's what counts. This year I had 3 heifer calves in heat at 191 days old (All at exactly that age!). Luckily I had the 2 I wanted to keep out of the bull's reach, and the 3rd did get bred but was going to the sale barn anyhow..
Texasbred is right, the ugliest mean witch of a cow will never give you an excuse to say she didn't give you a calf or get sick!
I *REALLY* don't want my heifer calves coming into heat before their mothers do!
What I found too is that if I look back at the first cow in 3 of my bloodlines, the two biggest (1600lb herf crosses) cows that were built like sherman tanks have the (great great grand) daughters that are skinny racks now. The one that was a skinny build produced what is now a moderately sized animal with meat all over it... and far better udders, feet, and longevity as well, because I haven't gotten to the point were I have any great great grand daughters yet.. For those who remember the bull calf I sold last year, He was from that line, and his mother was about a Frame 6 cow, not too heavy a build, and feminine.. He was thick, long, and smooth, and all her other bull (well, steer) calves were all great animals.
What I am wondering about scrotal measurements (if they affect the daughter's fertility), is "is there a 'right' size".. We've pretty much all had the replacement heifers that surprised us with a calf when they were 16 months... In the thread about that newborn calf that had the bad front legs, apparently that mother wasn't much over a year... Are we going too far in one direction and causing problems with calves being bred far too early? Like any of you I wouldn't want a bull with a peanut sack down there, but if he can do his job right, that's what counts. This year I had 3 heifer calves in heat at 191 days old (All at exactly that age!). Luckily I had the 2 I wanted to keep out of the bull's reach, and the 3rd did get bred but was going to the sale barn anyhow..
Texasbred is right, the ugliest mean witch of a cow will never give you an excuse to say she didn't give you a calf or get sick!
I *REALLY* don't want my heifer calves coming into heat before their mothers do!
