Murrays projects 2021

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MurraysMutts said:
I just don't think there is any more out there like Bessie!, @farmerjan

After working with a couple other cows, I realize how fortunate I am. Brandy did pretty good but she got unwell and I had to sell her. Eleanor can be a bit persnickity about some calves. She actually shoved this new one down the other day. Then proceeded to start licking on him!! Jeebus!

This time around I took your advice with Bessie, as she CAN be difficult at times. I kept her 2 big calves in the pen with her but seperated by panels. It was the easiest graft to date I think. Kept em all like that for about a week. Her old calves couldn't nurse. Killed two birds with one stone. Weaned the calves AND the two new calves got plenty to eat and bonded.
When I turned em all out she never even missed her old calves.

Bessie has only had ONE calf she absolutely would not bond with. She would allow it to nurse while she was being fed tho. I flipped that calf for a quick profit. Weird how they just won't accept one sometimes. Must be the smell or some other weird thing I don't get.
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I am looking to graft two calves onto our jersey. Her calf is due to wean and we don't want to dry her up yet. Going to try this method. Thanks!
 
Warren Allison said:
Oh, I won't be fooling with them much at all, and will probably only see them once a month or so when I go down to the Kudzu place. Scott will have to do the work of teaching Zeke how to raise bottle babies off of nurse cows!
Vet was out this morning., and she wormed them, gave them some kind of vitamin shop, some vaccines ( dunno what..she told me but I didnt focus, so don;t remember...I had my mind on Smoke) and did an exam. She said they were fine to breed, and fairly healthy considering the worm load. Just keep on feeding them my magic formula! She said she would come back when I was ready and give them shots to put them in heat, if I wanted to., then AI them for me: To just let her know when the semen arrived. But Dan came over to get some meds from her, and to check on Smoke, and he told us he still had some sexed, polled Brahma semen in the tank from when he AI'ed those Braunvieh x Brown Swiss recip cows he traded to me for finishing Frank. I had made up 100 lbs of my special mix,. and as soon as they are 1/2 done with that batch I will run them and the rest of the mix over to Dan's place. He has head gates, squeeze chutes and all that right there in the breeding barn. about 5 miles away. Then when Dan has them confirmed bred, I will take them down to Scott and Zeke.

Yes, they are gentle as a lap dog. so not worried about them hurting Zeke. They will calve in April, and yes, I figured we might add one more to them that 1st year, maybe 2. LIke you said, we will just have to watch how they are milking and maintaining condition. Now Gail, who will calve in December, and the Herf- Guernsey cow getting bred right now, we hope they can raise maybe 3 more each. Maybe by year two, Zeke will be getting 4 Brah x dairy replacement heifers to sell, plus 12 calves to wean and sell...maybe even eat 1 or 2. We will keep all 4 cows in that 7 or so acre pasture at Ms. Mattie's house. Don't know if they will over graze it, but it won't matter. Scott raises cotton, corn, soybeans and peanuts, and we plant about 15 of the 50 acre dove field in B.O.S.S. Plus he has about 100 acres total in irrigated bermuda hayfields. What we ought to do, is put all 4 of them over on the 26% Kudzu til we start hunting quail and rabbit in November. Zeke could ride down there every day, and give them some sweet feed in the corral. Don't want them to go to the back and stay there half feral like our Corrs were.

Thanks for the info, Murray. You have been a big help. I still think that maybe my dumb-ass could have done better by Zeke to put that $3k in mutual funds inside a ROTH, but what's the fun in that?!!! . Plus, this helped Screech's old lady out, too.
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Would you be interested in sharing your special fattening mix?
 
Dave said:
I hate to tell you but the title of this thread is "Murrays projects 2021". It is now 2023. You either need a new thread or your projects are growing way too slow.
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It's gotten a bit long winded huh!
Lots of these projects done went down the road....
And on to new ones!

@Hereford2 I seem to recall something about biotin crumbles and corn oil. But can't remember the exact formula.
It's in bessies thread I think. I'm sure the guvnah will be along...
 
Warren Allison said:
@Lucky_P, @wbvs58, can you feed too much protein to a pregnant cow? @Jeanne - Simme Valley , what protein content do you feed your preg cows?
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Yes - maybe - LOL.
Protein is needed for reproduction and for fetus development. But, too much protein can grow the fetus a lot bigger than you want. It won't hurt the cow - it passes thru their urine. I have very heavy BW's because my cattle are wintered on 15-16% protein baleage. So, they are fed this baleage their last ?3 months of pregnancy and 1st 3 months of nursing (roughly). The nursing time is perfect on this hay, but last 3 months of pregnancy GROWS a calf. My heifers rarely have a calf under ? 75#. Generally 80-95# without assistance, so I don't worry about it.

BUN - another subject. In the flush of spring, we have super high protein. To the point that cattle urine (see above) burns yellow spots in the pasture. This is Blood Urea Nitrate (or Nitrite?).
Anyway, BUN. It is not unhealthy for the cow BUT, it changes the PH in the cervex and the sperm cannot survive long enough to fertilize the egg. So, I feed Bicarb few weeks before breeding and thru at least first month. It is put in their mineral feeder - free choice. Cattle love it and it corrects the PH.
 
For 3 years nw, people have all but called me a liar when I post about the weaning weights on our Corriente calves each year...all but the handful that knows about Kudzu. We had some pretty big calves, which we attributed to the Brangus and Ultrablack .But. you can breed Corriente heifers to Chianina bulls and they will calve with no problems. Dunno about these dairy cows, especially the heifers. We might ought to do a little more researching before we turn them loose out there. I think some alfalfa fed to dairy cows has protein content nearly as high. But, they aren;t fed free choice 24/7 with it either.
 
Hereford2 said:
Thank you!
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This isn't a cattle-fattening mix. Or didn't start out to be. I came up with this as a medium to get oil and biotin into my horses, These condition the coat, the skin, and best of all their hooves. Horses do not require a lot of feed, and so many people do not understand this, Horses were designed to continuously feed on low-quality marginal forage. It is dangerous to their long term health to feed them quantities of grain. I have had horses for 52 years now, I have NEVER kept one in a stall. They do NOT wear blankets, and are NOT ever hauled in an enclosed trailer, In 52 years, I have never had one colic. My horses eat grass and hay, free choice. The ONLY time they are ever in a stall, is waiting their turn for the farrier or vet, etc.

Like I said, I use oil and biotin to keep them slick and shiny. Every day, I feed them a mix of a quart of oats, an 8 oz can pg whole corn, an 8 oz can of cracked corn ( this is my fly control program, The corn in the manure is pecked out by the chickens, spread out and dries up, Any maggots in it at all, also get eaten by the chickens.) an 8 oz can of B.O.S.S>, 8 oz of beet pulp pellet, 8oz of alfalfa pellets, and I crush up alfalfa cubes into a 16 oz can. This is used as binder for the mix. I put 3 oz of wheat germ oil, 3 oz of rice bran oil, 2 oz of Red Cell, and 4 oz of corn oil in it. Then I add a scoop ( I use a Mr,. Coffee scoop of 100% biotin crumbles, which is 3 oz I think) and a jigger (1 and 1l2 oz, isn't it) of loose minerals salt. And I put in a cop, 8 0z, of brown sugar. I have an industrial, commercial, stainless steel mixer I mix it all in, and put each serving in gallon zip lock bag. I feed them a bag inside their stall every day, just to get them in the habit of coming to the barn when they see me, and going into their respective stalls. They are in the stalls 15-20 mins,.

A few years back, a friend that showed horses with us, remarked that his kids were gonna show a calf that year, and wondered if we could make a similar mix for it, and if it would have similar results. I modified it for cattle by using a half gallon of oats, half gallon of corn, (whole and/or cracked) doubling all other items except the biotin. This mix he added ro whatever he was feeding them every day, and yes, it did wonders for their coats as well. This is what I am feeding those two heifers now, along with free choice bermuda hay.

All of the stuff in this mix is good for them...cows or horses, ..but it is oil and biotin, that is working the magic. If there were an easy way to get just this oil and the biotin in them, I wouldn't bother with the feed.
 
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Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
Yes - maybe - LOL.
Protein is needed for reproduction and for fetus development. But, too much protein can grow the fetus a lot bigger than you want. It won't hurt the cow - it passes thru their urine. I have very heavy BW's because my cattle are wintered on 15-16% protein baleage. So, they are fed this baleage their last ?3 months of pregnancy and 1st 3 months of nursing (roughly). The nursing time is perfect on this hay, but last 3 months of pregnancy GROWS a calf. My heifers rarely have a calf under ? 75#. Generally 80-95# without assistance, so I don't worry about it.

BUN - another subject. In the flush of spring, we have super high protein. To the point that cattle urine (see above) burns yellow spots in the pasture. This is Blood Urea Nitrate (or Nitrite?).
Anyway, BUN. It is not unhealthy for the cow BUT, it changes the PH in the cervex and the sperm cannot survive long enough to fertilize the egg. So, I feed Bicarb few weeks before breeding and thru at least first month. It is put in their mineral feeder - free choice. Cattle love it and it corrects the PH.
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You have a long and successful history of breeding & selecting for good birthweights and easy calving even with your heifers, but for many of us, especially running sale born cattle, care has to be taken over feeding heavy bred heifers with too much protein, regardless of the amount of roughage available. As you said..on the calf side of things.
It would be nice if the heifer always grew at the same rate as the calf in the uterus, but it don't work that way..
 
@MurraysMutts Huge thank you for these threads and advice from you as well as other members.
As stated a few posts up we were trying to get calves to graft onto our jersey. She's not due to dry up until January and her calf is starting to self wean.
I have successfully grafted many calves onto beef cattle who have lost their calf over the years but never a "nurse cow" or one who calved 6 plus months prior to grafting. I really learned a lot from your experiences you've posted about on your threads like this one. We are at the end of day 2 and she is allowing the 2 calves to nurse when eating her grain or being tied. Only the 1st nursing did we have kicking so she went into the chute and stood completely still from then on. She's not being terribly aggressive to them at this point. Does push the heifer around a bit with her head when she is in her way but nothing very aggressive.
Your experience with keeping the bigger calf that's being weaned with her but separate has been the key for us so far. Her calf is with her separated by a panel but can't nurse when she wants. She is nursing once a day (then immediately separated again) to keep lactation up till the calves get on their way and can keep up a bit better. So far it's working well that way. Her calf is used to being separated prior to milking then back on at/after milking (calf sharing). I can separate permanently (wean) if/when needed. The 2 new calves are with her full time now. She even slept with them last night.
I am trying not to be too optimistic yet but I am thinking this may actually work out. So thank you for always posting your experiences with your lovely jersey ladies and the calves. I don't think I would have even attempted this if not for your posts/experiences and the advice given on your threads.
 
@Double R Ranch many thanks!!

Twas actually @farmerjan who first told me about leaving her own born calf with her a few days if she becomes uncooperative!
She does a whole lot of this type thing as well and I find her advice very very helpful.

I'm so glad some folks are taking interest. To me, it's so enjoyable working with a good cow and her babies. It can be a touch frustrating on occasion, but most always is worth the reward!
 
@Double R Ranch , I too have learned a LOT from @MurraysMutts and @farmerjan about this nirse cow stuff. I am a little worried abut us trying it with 4, though, seeing as how it will be a mentally challenged boy and an old man like me with heart problems doing it. But,1 is due in December, and the other three in April., So, they will have 5 months to work with the first one. And, if trying it with 4 proves to be too much for them to handle, they don't have to put calves on the other three. But. Scott doesn't work off the farm anymore, and Zeke is through school, so they will have plenty of time to take it slow and easy. If grafting calves turns out top be too hard for them to do it will be ok. Zeke will just get four 1/2 Brahma heifers each year to sell or retain. But, with 4 dog-gentle cows like that...2 of them were family hand-milked cows...you hate to not at least try to raise some other calves off of them. Scott and I talked, and if going the nurse cow route turns out to be too hard, we would just keep those 1st two 1/2 Brahma heifers ( and Gail's and the Herf-Guernsey's, too, if they are heifers) and breed them to an Angus the first year. Rest of the time, to one of his brother's Chi-Angus/black Simm/Brangus bulls. We'd keep the heifers off of them til Zeke had up to 20 cows. Scott has a 50 acre Bermuda hayfield that is fenced in and he'd put those 20 on it. He'd then sprig 50 acres of his row crop fields for hay.

@Jeanne - Simme Valley , I have been thinking a lot about what you said above. For years we have run Corriente cows on 25% protein kudzu, and never had a calf too big for them to birth. Yes, they had bigger calves than Corrs normally do .but none ever had a problem birthing. Not even the heifers, though our heifers were bred to a Co
rr bull. These cows were bred in May, and mid to end of November, we would move them over to the harvested row crop fields and let them eat residue til February, when we would move them back to the Kudzu and they would calve. So, they ate that high protein Kudzu the first 5-6 months of gestation, but not the last 3 or 4. However, seeing as how 2 of these dairy cows are first calf heifers, and all are bred to a Brahma, I have decided to pull them from the Kudzu field. The Kudzu place will probabl;y be a good choice to put their calves on after weaning, though. I am 200 miles away, and Scott is not in good health after his stroke and his by-passes, and I worry about it being just him and Zeke trying to pull a calf.

I sent the last of my special mix down with the heifers. They were responding so well to it. Scott has corn, oats and B.O.S.S in his silos. Peanut oil is plentiful and cheap down there, so we are feeding them this mix. Like me, Scott buys biotin in 50 lb containers, so he adds this to the mix. The cows are doing just as well wit this as they did my mix. Zeke sprays them with fly spray every day when he feeds them. They are more bothered by insects than the Corrs were, but it is easy for him to spray them with a pump up sprayer while they eat. Ad they have to pass under an oiler going in and out of the corral to eat and lick salt.
 
I believe the protein will have a bigger effect on the size of the calf later in gestation. Not 100% sure, but pretty sure.
With yours being 25% protein, there is no way they are utilizing that much protein. They have to be passing a lot of it thru their urine. Their manure should be water - LOL!!!
Dairymen around here put up a lot of haylage cut super early and recut in about 35-45 days (?). Generally, they get about 20% protein for milking dairy cows.
 
@farmerjan Many thanks for your advice! It is helping!

@MurraysMutts This morning she went to each calf and sniffed on them. Looked like she was close to wanting to lick them but didn't.... yet. Let them nurse with no issues while she ate her breakfast. Unfortunately the heifer has started scouring. Was fine at supper feeding but was "shooting" by midnight. Pretty worried about that at the moment. This cow will no longer make progress with her if she get's weak at all. Still hopeful but concerned about this change.

@Warren Allison Holy cow! You got a challenge ahead but it sounds like a great plan. I definitely would attempt to use those cows as nurse cows. Calves around here are around $550-$650 a piece on average if you can find them. Dairy calves are slightly less but not by much. Pretty expensive for trials so I have been hesitant in this case. We did get lucky with these two small calves as they were "too small" for the veal guys. Perfect for our situation/cow size. We attempted a jersey bull calf a few months back (to raise with her calf) and it went well the first few days but he scoured up and not even the vet could get it stopped and as soon as he got weaker she was done with him completely. I am concerned we will have that again if I can't get this heifer's scours stopped. We are trying to keep our cow in milk by continuing to calf share so we continue to get milk for us and she isn't due to dry up until January for her next calf so we'd prefer not to have her dry that long. Unfortunately we have had very hot temps so we have an added fight on our hands.
Really hope your grafting adventures as smooth! Hope you will post about how it goes!
 
Double R Ranch said:
@farmerjan Many thanks for your advice! It is helping!

@MurraysMutts This morning she went to each calf and sniffed on them. Looked like she was close to wanting to lick them but didn't.... yet. Let them nurse with no issues while she ate her breakfast. Unfortunately the heifer has started scouring. Was fine at supper feeding but was "shooting" by midnight. Pretty worried about that at the moment. This cow will no longer make progress with her if she get's weak at all. Still hopeful but concerned about this change.

@Warren Allison Holy cow! You got a challenge ahead but it sounds like a great plan. I definitely would attempt to use those cows as nurse cows. Calves around here are around $550-$650 a piece on average if you can find them. Dairy calves are slightly less but not by much. Pretty expensive for trials so I have been hesitant in this case. We did get lucky with these two small calves as they were "too small" for the veal guys. Perfect for our situation/cow size. We attempted a jersey bull calf a few months back (to raise with her calf) and it went well the first few days but he scoured up and not even the vet could get it stopped and as soon as he got weaker she was done with him completely. I am concerned we will have that again if I can't get this heifer's scours stopped. We are trying to keep our cow in milk by continuing to calf share so we continue to get milk for us and she isn't due to dry up until January for her next calf so we'd prefer not to have her dry that long. Unfortunately we have had very hot temps so we have an added fight on our hands.
Really hope your grafting adventures as smooth! Hope you will post about how it goes!
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Sustain lll calf boluses.
They've never failed me. Scouring one day. Cleared up in a day or two.
Plenty of fresh water.

I most times have em scour on a high producing cow. The calf drinks til he can't drink no more. And after not having an unlimited supply it usually messes with em a bit.
Eventually they level out and learn not to be a pigger!
 
MurraysMutts said:
Sustain lll calf boluses.
They've never failed me. Scouring one day. Cleared up in a day or two.
Plenty of fresh water.

I most times have em scour on a high producing cow. The calf drinks til he can't drink no more. And after not having an unlimited supply it usually messes with em a bit.
Eventually they level out and learn not to be a pigger!
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I suspect that is exactly the case here. I wasn't taking the calves off as long as she was letting them nurse. She definitely ate till she wanted to pop. So you give the Sustain III one pre ruminant calves? The bottle says not under 1 month old. I am giving her the probiotic powder recommended on a thread here. She's still very alert. Up and moving. Slightly dehydrated but seem to be keeping up for the most part. Thanks for the advice!
 
IMMODIUM for people... 1 tablet for 100 lbs... use 1 tablet for the calf unless a little peeweee size calf........ twice a day if necessary....

The biggest problem with getting calves on nurse cows is for them to get too much.... Gotta limit the intake for 3-7 days as they go from either colostrum on the dam, or from powdered milk in a bottle....
Pills, boluses etc are easier and faster than trying to get them to drink those mixes to stop scours. Many times scours is NOT a "bug" or something in their gut tract...a... it is strictly over eating... Take the calf off the cow for one feeding... give it electrolytes or even plain water in a bottle if you can get it to take it... and get the gut "stopped up"....
That is why when I try to get a second group started on a cow, the CURRENT calves get to come in and "finish up the udder" long before the new calves get their fill.... You want them to still be a little hungry for the first 4-6 feedings at least....
It can be a pain in the butt to transition to a second group... but if you have a little patience it can be done as long as the cow accepts them.

I have not used the sustain boluses in years but not saying they aren't good.... just use the immodium which is strictly to S-L-O-W the milk down through the stomach and gut tract... it helps them to absorb the nutrients ... makes the manure thicker... stops the squirts.

Anything with psyillium also will firm up the manure... you can get pill forms for people also...
Home made recipe is 1-2 eggs, added to 2 tsp salt, 1 tsp baking soda, mixed in 1-2 qts water.... can give another mix in 4 hours... give more water if the calf is looking for more... The egg will help to firm it up... salt and baking soda replenish some of the missing electrolytes...eggs do not have to be beaten hard... just mixed in..... baking soda can make it foam and you do not want that. The salt helps to make them more thirsty to drink more after a bit also....
I have also added apple cider vinegar at the rate of 1/2 cup to a 2 qt. bottle... or again, use capsules for people... settles the stomach some.

I know the vets will cringe on some of these, but have used several of them many times...

The biggest thing is to not let them get too much in the beginning...

Also, I keep on hand a few packages of resorb or other calf scour things to mix in water to give... cheap insurance to have them on hand... look at the ingredients and see they are not complicated...
But I like the immodium for just "overeating type scours"...
 
farmerjan said:
IMMODIUM for people... 1 tablet for 100 lbs... use 1 tablet for the calf unless a little peeweee size calf........ twice a day if necessary....

The biggest problem with getting calves on nurse cows is for them to get too much.... Gotta limit the intake for 3-7 days as they go from either colostrum on the dam, or from powdered milk in a bottle....
Pills, boluses etc are easier and faster than trying to get them to drink those mixes to stop scours. Many times scours is NOT a "bug" or something in their gut tract...a... it is strictly over eating... Take the calf off the cow for one feeding... give it electrolytes or even plain water in a bottle if you can get it to take it... and get the gut "stopped up"....
That is why when I try to get a second group started on a cow, the CURRENT calves get to come in and "finish up the udder" long before the new calves get their fill.... You want them to still be a little hungry for the first 4-6 feedings at least....
It can be a pain in the butt to transition to a second group... but if you have a little patience it can be done as long as the cow accepts them.

I have not used the sustain boluses in years but not saying they aren't good.... just use the immodium which is strictly to S-L-O-W the milk down through the stomach and gut tract... it helps them to absorb the nutrients ... makes the manure thicker... stops the squirts.

Anything with psyillium also will firm up the manure... you can get pill forms for people also...
Home made recipe is 1-2 eggs, added to 2 tsp salt, 1 tsp baking soda, mixed in 1-2 qts water.... can give another mix in 4 hours... give more water if the calf is looking for more... The egg will help to firm it up... salt and baking soda replenish some of the missing electrolytes...eggs do not have to be beaten hard... just mixed in..... baking soda can make it foam and you do not want that. The salt helps to make them more thirsty to drink more after a bit also....
I have also added apple cider vinegar at the rate of 1/2 cup to a 2 qt. bottle... or again, use capsules for people... settles the stomach some.

I know the vets will cringe on some of these, but have used several of them many times...

The biggest thing is to not let them get too much in the beginning...

Also, I keep on hand a few packages of resorb or other calf scour things to mix in water to give... cheap insurance to have them on hand... look at the ingredients and see they are not complicated...
But I like the immodium for just "overeating type scours"...
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So helpful! I don't cringe at these types of treatments at all. Writing it down and will use it. Thank you! I am sure it is overeating at this point. It doesn't look like the same scours we lost the one from previously. I will be more careful in the future of the first week or so. Immodium is a go to for a dairy friend of ours. I don't have any on hand but will make it a point to keep it in stock from now on. The pink stuff the feed stores sell does nothing it seems.
As of supper time the cow let down for them as soon as she saw them up. They went to her and nursed all on their own and she acted as if they were hers. No cleaning etc yet but I think as long as I can keep them going we are on the right path. I will make your mix and give it to her in a few hours since she got electrolytes only a couple hours ago now. I will also let her older calf finish her off instead of holding her back some. That should help a lot.
Again thank you for taking the time to offer so much advise! It's greatly appreciated.
 
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