More Research Debunking "Bigger is Better"

[dun]

When we ran on range ( 300 acres per pair) we wanted smallish cows but with fairly long legs. They had to cover miles between water sources. The short legged cows just hung around with a smallish area of a water hole while the longer legged cows (Brahman influence) would wander from water hole to water hole while the fed. Not scientific, just observation. When you see the same group of cows at the same water hole every day and other groups always at different watering holes you start to get notions about what works and why

 

[Ebenezer]

I think Oldtimer is confused. From my interpretation we're talking about the frame size, not the actual weights. Buyers didn't want short calves, even if their weights are same as the typical feeder calf. So just don't confuse the short calves with the lightweight calves.

I don't know how else to say that frame score is critical, more than weight. I don't guess I will ever own a Basset Hound type cow. The point of farming is profit not free exercise. Calves of different weights but same FS in the east: sometimes lighter calves are more profitable. But again same FS. Small frame = dock on any weight.

Cow weights: OT, what is the range of weight of brood cows, including 1st calf heifers in your herd on any given day? That is what I am talking about and not the time of year that they are weighed. I'll bet that if most of us are honest, the average is made up of highs and lows. Cows here range from 1025 to 1475. Not proud of it but they are not all tightly tied to one another as a whole and they range in ages. But if weight creep has the average weight to super big cows, sell the blimps and keep the more normal cows.

 

[ez14]

why do people try to use pounds of calf per acre or pounds of calf per cow???? to measure success (or profit) when all that really matters is $$ in vs $$ out

 

[Oldtimer]

I think Oldtimer is confused. From my interpretation we're talking about the frame size, not the actual weights. Buyers didn't want short calves, even if their weights are same as the typical feeder calf. So just don't confuse the short calves with the lightweight calves.

I don't know how else to say that frame score is critical, more than weight. I don't guess I will ever own a Basset Hound type cow. The point of farming is profit not free exercise. Calves of different weights but same FS in the east: sometimes lighter calves are more profitable. But again same FS. Small frame = dock on any weight.

Cow weights: OT, what is the range of weight of brood cows, including 1st calf heifers in your herd on any given day? That is what I am talking about and not the time of year that they are weighed. I'll bet that if most of us are honest, the average is made up of highs and lows. Cows here range from 1025 to 1475. Not proud of it but they are not all tightly tied to one another as a whole and they range in ages. But if weight creep has the average weight to super big cows, sell the blimps and keep the more normal cows.

I still have a few of those 6-7 frame cows that weigh in the 1400+ range- but I have found that there is more profit in this area in the smaller more efficient cattle- so are eliminating them... When you live in an area where often you have to feed hay 5-6 months of the year- and temps are often 20 below with 50 below or more chill factor for weeks-- you don't want to be having to stuff one of those 6-7-8 frame cows full of enough hay to keep warm ..

I chased the exotic fad for several years too when it first came to be and we had the larger crossbred cattle for years- but they would almost make you cry when you watched the amount of hay they would consume in a winter.. Same with pasture- we can easily run more smaller efficient cattle on the same acreage... And we haven't changed the average weight weaned on the calves by that much.. In fact in some cases with the better grass genetics and the fact there is more grass to go around for all we are getting bigger calves...

And I don't see an 1150 Lb 4-5 frame cow as dumpy.. Nor their calves.. The steers and heifers we don't keep to sell as seedstock have topped the market for several years...March-April Bull calves last year averaged 655 end of October - Steers averaged 607 (brought $1280 each on Oct. 30th) and the heifers averaged 590 (and brought $1150).. You can't ask for much better then that in this country..

I often wonder how many people have actually put a tape to their cattle to determine frame size? These are northern range cattle type and are on the top of the buyers lists... If you think you need and want bigger calves, breed to a terminal type bull- or a charolais... Some in our area that do, run efficient maternal type angus (red or black) cattle but breed to bigger framed charolais, or simmi bulls to get bigger framed calves... But I still contend you don't need big momma cows to raise good calves- and you can make more profit with efficient smaller cows..

This is a never ending argument that has went on for years between breeders and ranchers- but after 50 years of running cattle I pretty much agree with what these studies (especially all the years of research at NDSU) are showing.. But like I said- we are much like North Dakota in environment and weather-- so their findings may not fit all- but it sure is proving true for us...

 

[Muddy]

So your cattle wasn't small framed after all, Oldtimer. Just average moderate framed cattle that everyone has....

 

[Oldtimer]

So your cattle wasn't small framed after all, Oldtimer. Just average moderate framed cattle that everyone has....

I never said they were- someone else did... I do not consider 4-5 frame 1150 lb cattle as small or dumpy as has been suggested -- and all but 2 or 3 of my cows fit into essentially what the ND study has been looking at - moderate cattle that weigh between 1000 and 1250- and average about 1150...
But I do consider 1500 lb and plus cattle to be big - and from experience too big- and much more inefficient both on pasture and on feed- but especially in the winter when you're pouring the hay to them...

I'll probably start another argument but here is more fuel for the fire- I prefer moderate framed cattle that have a higher backfat EPD and can carry a backfat layer into the winter... A Montana State University study several years ago showed that the moderate sized Galloway with their long hair cover were actually the most winter efficient cattle -- but they don't sell good because the feeders don't like the long hair in the feedlots... So instead I prefer angus cattle with some fat under their hide...

The worst cattle we ever had on the place was a bunch of bigger framed limousin cows... While the angus and the herefords were out rustling and grazing thru the snow on a cold windy Montana day- the limos were standing behind a windbreak shivering waiting for the feedtruck... So much for "Lauras lean" beef- we got rid of them pretty quick...

 

[Nesikep]

As long as you've got what works for you, that's fine. I'm just finding that I can't get a smallish cow to actually produce well.. Several bloodlines now I've tried to reduce the mature size, and every heifer I kept that matured around 1100 lbs didn't produce well. I think it's good that cows carry some fat on them as well, which is why I wean early so they can fatten up a little on pasture before hay feeding time. I'm concentrating my efforts on cows that aren't monsters and efficiently digest food.. I've noticed some maternal lines of cows chew a mouthful of cud up to twice as long as others.. I can't say if this is a genetic trait or if it's learned from momma, but those cows tend to eat less and stay in better condition

 

[elkwc]

To me a moderate cow is 1250-1,400 and average around 1,350. And a frame 5.0-6.0. Prefer 5.0-5.5 but would rather have a frame 6 cow than a frame 4.5. Again what works for a persons operation the best.

 

[dun]

To me a moderate cow is 1250-1,400 and average around 1,350. And a frame 5.0-6.0. Prefer 5.0-5.5 but would rather have a frame 6 cow than a frame 4.5. Again what works for a persons operation the best.

That's about the way I like them too.

 

[Muddy]

To me a moderate cow is 1250-1,400 and average around 1,350. And a frame 5.0-6.0. Prefer 5.0-5.5 but would rather have a frame 6 cow than a frame 4.5. Again what works for a persons operation the best.

Same here. I've had some 1,000lbs mature cows but they sucked at weaning big calves and I get killed at the sale barn. I don't know anyone that has a herd of cows in 7-8 frame range. Our cattle are frame 4.5 to 5.5 which I considered it to be moderate. We have few 1,400-1,500lbs cows that holds their condition very well in winters and droughts.

 

[Nesikep]

I think everyone here is pretty familiar with my cow Mega.. probably around FS 5.5-6, 1500 ish lb.. not small by any means, but not a giant either. When it's getting time to change the pasture, mostly because they're too darned fussy and they've picked all the leaves off and there's just stalks left, the real BIG cows stand around and bawl at me whenever they see me, they lose condition, and don't get back to work. Mega stays round and keeps working.

2 years ago in the winter, not feeding hay yet
]

 

[dun]

I think everyone here is pretty familiar with my cow Mega.. probably around FS 5.5-6, 1500 ish lb.. not small by any means, but not a giant either. When it's getting time to change the pasture, mostly because they're too darned fussy and they've picked all the leaves off and there's just stalks left, the real BIG cows stand around and bawl at me whenever they see me, they lose condition, and don't get back to work. Mega stays round and keeps working.

2 years ago in the winter, not feeding hay yet
]

A red Granny. Granny was one of those stubby legged things that was too wide to fit in the chute. She wasn;t fat, just THICK and deep

 

[cow pollinater]

Assuming that a smaller cow is more feed efficient is just that. An assumption. Sure, if you go to extremes you can reduce their size to the point where you do know for a fact that you've reduced intake because a very inefficient 1000 pound cow will still eat less than an average 1500 pound cow.
Our focus on cutting feed costs needs to be directed at pinpointing genetics that have proven to consume less feed than we expect them to for their size. If you want efficiency in the extreme then by all means pick a few bulls from the list of proven feed efficient sires that will also downsize your cattle, but just downsizing blindly is somewhat of a shot in the dark.

 

[elkwc]

I think everyone here is pretty familiar with my cow Mega.. probably around FS 5.5-6, 1500 ish lb.. not small by any means, but not a giant either. When it's getting time to change the pasture, mostly because they're too darned fussy and they've picked all the leaves off and there's just stalks left, the real BIG cows stand around and bawl at me whenever they see me, they lose condition, and don't get back to work. Mega stays round and keeps working.

2 years ago in the winter, not feeding hay yet
]

She is the right type. At least for me. I would rather have a 1,500 lb cow than an 1,100# cow. Anything 1,150 and down I consider small.

 

[bmoore87]

Assuming that a smaller cow is more feed efficient is just that. An assumption. Sure, if you go to extremes you can reduce their size to the point where you do know for a fact that you've reduced intake because a very inefficient 1000 pound cow will still eat less than an average 1500 pound cow.

I agree genetic feed efficiency needs to be taken major part taken into account, but look at it as average cows to average cows the smaller ones will eat less since they have a 1/5 to 1/3 less body weight to maintain. These smaller cows (we are more moderate 1150-1250) in general will wean a calf that is a larger percent of their body weight if you are breeding to a terminal bull with genetics that will increase the frame score of the calves. We havent seen a dock and usually sell in groups to neighbors stopped and looked at some in the feedyards and are basically similar in size.

Really depends on what works in your area and situation on pasture wether its owned/ leased by farm or pay per head.

 

[Lucky_P]

Somebody who'd given this more thought than me made the following comment, and I think there's some truth in there...

Efficiency and profit are not the same thing. It doesn't matter how efficient small framed cows are per acre, if each cow is losing money.

I bought into the 'cows are too big' thing for a short time. Used a 4.0-frame, high $EN Angus sire heavily. He shrunk 'em all right... had several 2-yr old cows that weighed in at 875...after weaning a calf. Steers were 'short and stocky' to put it nicely, and received a substantial dock as a result - despite being pretty light across the scales. Still recovering from that deal, and glad I didn't order semen on any of those 2.5-3.0 frame PCC bulls.

 

[Clodhopper]

We just sold an old shorthorn cow about a month ago when we sold calves, she weighed 985. She always bred back on time except for this last go round, was later bred than the group. I hardly ever seen her at the hay feeder, she was always out picking whatever she could. We only grain mature cows to catch them, and she rarely came in for that either, so I was tickled to catch her. Up until this year, her calves were within 50-75# of the group. Her heifer calf was small, but momma also let every calf out there suck. The buyer said he figured she was 20 years old, and he grew up with hundreds of head of owned cattle and his family also owned the stockyards, he's seen more cattle than I've seen people. We agreed that if a man had lots of poor pasture and scrub, she's the right type of cow. However, she's not what the market wants. Environment, feed efficiency, market, they all play a role.

 

[Muddy]

We just sold an old shorthorn cow about a month ago when we sold calves, she weighed 985. She always bred back on time except for this last go round, was later bred than the group. I hardly ever seen her at the hay feeder, she was always out picking whatever she could. We only grain mature cows to catch them, and she rarely came in for that either, so I was tickled to catch her. Up until this year, her calves were within 50-75# of the group. Her heifer calf was small, but momma also let every calf out there suck. The buyer said he figured she was 20 years old, and he grew up with hundreds of head of owned cattle and his family also owned the stockyards, he's seen more cattle than I've seen people. We agreed that if a man had lots of poor pasture and scrub, she's the right type of cow. However, she's not what the market wants. Environment, feed efficiency, market, they all play a role.

I wouldn't use this old shorthorn cow as an example. :shock: probably used up all nutrients to feed all calves..

 

[Clodhopper]

That's why I mentioned the fact that she let them all suck. We made money with her, but she's not the ideal. There's a reason why most animals of any species fall into an average range of size, because the moderate size is what works best. Look at a bell curve, there's a few on the bottom and top ends, but most fall somewhere in the middle. This isn't by accident. The smaller, "better" animal is more the exception than the rule, I would venture to guess.

 

[3waycross]

Old Timer wrote.....

I still have a few of those 6-7 frame cows that weigh in the 1400+ range- but I have found that there is more profit in this area in the smaller more efficient cattle- so are eliminating them... When you live in an area where often you have to feed hay 5-6 months of the year- and temps are often 20 below with 50 below or more chill factor for weeks-- you don't want to be having to stuff one of those 6-7-8 frame cows full of enough hay to keep warm ..

This flies in the face of conventional wisdom that says that the farther north you travel in the range of a given species the larger the individual representative of that species becomes. I have always taken this to mean that because of the increased need to maintain body temperature in the Northern environs they need more mass. ie. a Texas white tail deer avg's around 125lbs and the same buck in Alberta or Sask would be closer to 300lbs.