More peace from the peaceful.

[CowboyBlue]

I agree with that. I know there are some "moderate" Muslims in our country today who are fine, upstanding citizens, and (as long as they are true U.S. citizens, or naturalized citizens) entitled to every right as an American that I am and that you are.

What I don't agree with, what I don't appreciate, is how Muslims come to America to enjoy those rights and privileges and then condemn us for the lifestyles that we choose to live. It has become a "hate crime" for me to speak out against radical Islam, but the radical Muslim can speak out against my Christianity and hide his rancor behind his "freedom of speech." The double standard is sickening.

Edited to add: The "live and let live" portion of your argument is attractive. The US once operated under those principles, and were I a more knowledgeable student of history, I could give you my perspectives on the politics of national isolationism. However, that lecture would be best left to others. More to the point, that is no longer possible. As PaPa used to say, "that cow done left the barn."

 

[Anonymous]

First, no culture has a monopoly on evil. There is plenty of murder, drugs, cheating, lying, rape, fraud, abuse, and disgusting behavior right here in the USA.

Second, you mentioned solution. Here is a start. Stay out of the cultures and national affairs of other sovereign nations. Stop trying to make everyone in the world an American. Let them eat what they want, pray how they want, practice whatever religion they want, behave how they want, etc.

Third, terrorism has to be addressed. That requires all the tools in the tool chest. National security operations, military action, intelligence, and even clandestine operations.

This thread is not going to provide a solution to terrorism or strategies to combat terrorism. Discussing it has merit but it is foolish to consider it any more than commentary. In the end, regardless of the history of US involvement in the Mideast or the role that religion plays, the threat of terrorism haunts our nation and the world.

This thread was entertaining and hopefully caused us all to analyze our thoughts on the subject. Several users participated in this thread and many others enjoyed reading it.

I think for me, it is time to bow out. Pate said he no longer wants to be an ambassador.

PS: Jo stated:
You know, I was heading home last night and passed a school and the lot was full of buses preparing to take children home at 6:30 pm and I was saddened at the thought that most of the children had no one at home who cared enough to feed them supper or breakfast and I wondered what our society will look like when these children become adults and this is what they think of as normal. I was also saddened by the thought of the poor teachers who are unfairly strapped with the responsibility of trying to put moral compasses in these beautiful little apples.

I totally agree. You have a good conscience to harbor those feelings.

I can agree with you both and even take it a step further. I think America has over stepped bounds on foreign affairs for quite some time. Mostly with good intentions, but never the less over stepped. I have no problem limiting or even banning people with ill intentions from coming here. But if we don't want them here, we certainly should NOT be in their nation either. As for the kids Jo mentioned, the same can be stated in that situation. Why are kids still at school at 6:30? Why even send them home?(SARCASM) . Government should stay out of families lives as much as humanly possible too. The more "good" society tries to do by means of government, no matter how good intentions, the more it is expected. Responsibility shifts from parents and individuals to government.

 

[backhoeboogie]

As for the kids Jo mentioned, the same can be stated in that situation. Why are kids still at school at 6:30? Why even send them home?(SARCASM)

Schools have an extended day program. Different names for it in different districts.

Certified teachers stay at the school with the kids.

Here the kids are picked up at school by their parents. No bus is involved.

My grandson is participating in the school play. It is an after school thing on Thursdays. No way for me to pick him up at 4:30 After school day care doesn't make a special trip to pick him up. So he attends extended day on Thursday. Some kids attend every day.

I understand it because we participate. I pick him up at 5:15 or so.

 

[Jogeephus]

"Second, you mentioned solution. Here is a start. Stay out of the cultures and national affairs of other sovereign nations. Stop trying to make everyone in the world an American. Let them eat what they want, pray how they want, practice whatever religion they want, behave how they want, etc."

On the surface that sounds great. The problem is that the Koran specifically calls for jihad, holy war, against all non-Muslims. That is the root of Islamic terrorism: fanatical, rabid adherence to their religion assumes they will become killers. In their minds, they are cleansing the world of great evil. In the eyes of the rest of the world, they are murdering terrorists.

I can't argue that other than to say it would be much easier and more feasible to confine a cancer to a foot while dealing with an acne problem than allowing the cancer to spread all over the body before addressing because we have the means and technology to amputate the foot or the leg if need be.

The founding father's had a good saying; "united we stand, divided we fall" and this still holds true today. As long as we have divisiveness in this country we will not have real peace and prosperity. The extremists encourage division by either condemning people who, in their view, are not american enough or through their efforts to become unique through their demands for distinctions such as african-american, muslim-american, etc. While these trendy terms may seem enlightened and progressive they are actually repressive. As I mentioned in an earlier post whenever you subdivide a population the result is always a subgroup where some people will always find themselves marginalized within this new group. No matter how many times you subdivide these subgroups there will always be those who feel marginalized. People are just complex. The creation of subgroups is wonderful for those in the politics because all they need do to win elections is pander to these groups rather than to the nation as a whole and when you pander to a sub-group the nation as a whole suffers. This will never work because I think its obvious we cannot manage our pastures properly by trying to manage individual blades of grass because we have manage the whole and there will always be areas of pasture that are marginal no matter what we do.

If you look at religions in america you'll see where some might believe those in another religion will go to he77 but these communities for the most part are bound by a common compass - the ten commandants which warns of the unholiness of murder and this common denominator insures peace. It would be horrible to think of how things might be if this compass was replaced by one that claims its holy to kill those who aren't as holy as you. This is what scares me.

 

[Jogeephus]

I can agree with you both and even take it a step further. I think America has over stepped bounds on foreign affairs for quite some time. Mostly with good intentions, but never the less over stepped. I have no problem limiting or even banning people with ill intentions from coming here. But if we don't want them here, we certainly should NOT be in their nation either. As for the kids Jo mentioned, the same can be stated in that situation. Why are kids still at school at 6:30? Why even send them home?(SARCASM) . Government should stay out of families lives as much as humanly possible too. The more "good" society tries to do by means of government, no matter how good intentions, the more it is expected. Responsibility shifts from parents and individuals to government.

I completely agree. We don't/can't understand the intricacies of these countries. Many are operating on a completely different moral compass and there is no way can we be constructive because these folks have been fighting each other for centuries and as soon as we take a side we have made an enemy. Its a no win situation.

Zirlottkim, the church feeds many of these same children on the weekends. Deliver the food to their homes. The moral compass of the parents of these kids is so screwed up that they spend their food money on other things than their children. Their many many children. These programs are costing a fortune. Will it help? Will it pull a child out of this mindset? Maybe a few but the majority will think this normal and raise their children in the same manner. Its so sad.

 

[Anonymous]

I can agree with you both and even take it a step further. I think America has over stepped bounds on foreign affairs for quite some time. Mostly with good intentions, but never the less over stepped. I have no problem limiting or even banning people with ill intentions from coming here. But if we don't want them here, we certainly should NOT be in their nation either. As for the kids Jo mentioned, the same can be stated in that situation. Why are kids still at school at 6:30? Why even send them home?(SARCASM) . Government should stay out of families lives as much as humanly possible too. The more "good" society tries to do by means of government, no matter how good intentions, the more it is expected. Responsibility shifts from parents and individuals to government.

I completely agree. We don't/can't understand the intricacies of these countries. Many are operating on a completely different moral compass and there is no way can we be constructive because these folks have been fighting each other for centuries and as soon as we take a side we have made an enemy. Its a no win situation.

Zirlottkim, the church feeds many of these same children on the weekends. Deliver the food to their homes. The moral compass of the parents of these kids is so screwed up that they spend their food money on other things than their children. Their many many children. These programs are costing a fortune. Will it help? Will it pull a child out of this mindset? Maybe a few but the majority will think this normal and raise their children in the same manner. Its so sad.

Steadily declining moral attitudes are being passed from generation to generation. No region, state or even family is immune. I think many government programs have enabled this decline, or maybe even caused them. Helping kids by feeding them is noble. That is the responsibility of not only Churches but individuals also. I have no problems with true charity. Handing money to parents via government welfare programs is an enabler to bad behavior. Real charity comes from individuals and isn't coerced in the form of taxes.

 

[ChrisB]

First, no culture has a monopoly on evil. There is plenty of murder, drugs, cheating, lying, rape, fraud, abuse, and disgusting behavior right here in the USA.

Second, you mentioned solution. Here is a start. Stay out of the cultures and national affairs of other sovereign nations. Stop trying to make everyone in the world an American. Let them eat what they want, pray how they want, practice whatever religion they want, behave how they want, etc.

You do realize one of the reasons for getting involved in the affairs around the globe is that many people are not allowed to do the things highlighted right? There are many human rights violations taking place around the world. I can understand the idea that we shouldn't get involved. But I also believe that it is immoral of us to just sit back and watch the atrocities that are taking place. If we know our neighbor beats his wife and children should we sit by and do nothing?

 

[Ky hills]

I can agree with you both and even take it a step further. I think America has over stepped bounds on foreign affairs for quite some time. Mostly with good intentions, but never the less over stepped. I have no problem limiting or even banning people with ill intentions from coming here. But if we don't want them here, we certainly should NOT be in their nation either. As for the kids Jo mentioned, the same can be stated in that situation. Why are kids still at school at 6:30? Why even send them home?(SARCASM) . Government should stay out of families lives as much as humanly possible too. The more "good" society tries to do by means of government, no matter how good intentions, the more it is expected. Responsibility shifts from parents and individuals to government.

I completely agree. We don't/can't understand the intricacies of these countries. Many are operating on a completely different moral compass and there is no way can we be constructive because these folks have been fighting each other for centuries and as soon as we take a side we have made an enemy. Its a no win situation.

Zirlottkim, the church feeds many of these same children on the weekends. Deliver the food to their homes. The moral compass of the parents of these kids is so screwed up that they spend their food money on other things than their children. Their many many children. These programs are costing a fortune. Will it help? Will it pull a child out of this mindset? Maybe a few but the majority will think this normal and raise their children in the same manner. Its so sad.

In this county there is a program that as I understand it provides breakfast to all school children. There is also an after school program, my interpretation of that is that it is probably for children of working parents who pick there children up when they get off from work. The Appalachian region of KY is heavily dependent on government assistance, some people may commute up to 100 miles each way to work. In lots of cases it is difficult for folks to afford reliable vehicles, which in turn makes holding a job difficult. Our church here in town, started a ministry in the mountains twenty some years ago, my family has been helping there for several of those years. Generational poverty, drug and alcohol addictions, are major obstacles that many are born into and/or brought up around. A by product of the ministry has become trying to encourage the children to take advantage of their time in school, and to try and steer them away from addictions.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I completely agree. We don't/can't understand the intricacies of these countries. Many are operating on a completely different moral compass and there is no way can we be constructive because these folks have been fighting each other for centuries and as soon as we take a side we have made an enemy. Its a no win situation.

Zirlottkim, the church feeds many of these same children on the weekends. Deliver the food to their homes. The moral compass of the parents of these kids is so screwed up that they spend their food money on other things than their children. Their many many children. These programs are costing a fortune. Will it help? Will it pull a child out of this mindset? Maybe a few but the majority will think this normal and raise their children in the same manner. Its so sad.

It is huge Jogee.

Realize that they have internal conflicts they cannot resolve. For instance cultures with caste systems. Many of these cultures are trying to hang on to their caste systems, and embrace Islam at the same time. You can google and read to your hearts desire on castes and Islam. Major conflicts. Lower casts want to embrace Islam to its fullest extent. High casts do not. The centuries old cultures are hard to break.

There are many more examples that can be cited. Our media is so focused on terrorism that we do not get the full picture of all the known conflicts that cannot be resolved. There is no solution. So you are exactly right on your no win situation.

The media is not going to let us understand, if we could. Stop terrorism that is caused by this sector, and another sector creates yet another need. They have one answer for all their problems. And they have a lot of problems.

Zirlottkim if you are I feed these children, or our church feed them, it is appreciated. The children will express gratitude, compassion, and remember. If the government feeds them, it is different. The government takes your resources, through taxation, and gives to the children's parents. It may not get to the child. When the child does get it, he thinks it came from Uncle Sam. He does not understand that it came from our paychecks.

If Uncle Sam is truly just feeding children with my tax dollars, he can take more. For food for children.

 

[Margonme]

Zirlottkim stated:

Steadily declining moral attitudes are being passed from generation to generation. No region, state or even family is immune. I think many government programs have enabled this decline, or maybe even caused them. Helping kids by feeding them is noble. That is the responsibility of not only Churches but individuals also. I have no problems with true charity. Handing money to parents via government welfare programs is an enabler to bad behavior. Real charity comes from individuals and isn't coerced in the form of taxes.

Mine eyes have seen that which you speak.
Well said!

 

[Margonme]

First, no culture has a monopoly on evil. There is plenty of murder, drugs, cheating, lying, rape, fraud, abuse, and disgusting behavior right here in the USA.

Second, you mentioned solution. Here is a start. Stay out of the cultures and national affairs of other sovereign nations. Stop trying to make everyone in the world an American. Let them eat what they want, pray how they want, practice whatever religion they want, behave how they want, etc.

You do realize one of the reasons for getting involved in the affairs around the globe is that many people are not allowed to do the things highlighted right? There are many human rights violations taking place around the world. I can understand the idea that we shouldn't get involved. But I also believe that it is immoral of us to just sit back and watch the atrocities that are taking place. If we know our neighbor beats his wife and children should we sit by and do nothing?

The primary reason for US involvement in the middle east has been for the purpose of maintaining a reliable source of oil but I acknowledge it serves other national interests including protecting human rights.

 

[Margonme]

KY Hills stated:

In this county there is a program that as I understand it provides breakfast to all school children. There is also an after school program, my interpretation of that is that it is probably for children of working parents who pick there children up when they get off from work. The Appalachian region of KY is heavily dependent on government assistance, some people may commute up to 100 miles each way to work. In lots of cases it is difficult for folks to afford reliable vehicles, which in turn makes holding a job difficult. Our church here in town, started a ministry in the mountains twenty some years ago, my family has been helping there for several of those years. Generational poverty, drug and alcohol addictions, are major obstacles that many are born into and/or brought up around. A by product of the ministry has become trying to encourage the children to take advantage of their time in school, and to try and steer them away from addictions.

Kentucky Appalachia has been the prototype for numerous case studies in poverty. The history of the region and the poverty is fascinating reading. I wish I had time to read some of the books again.

But I don't have to go back to Appalachia to see what you describe. I see it right on Crockett Lane. People buy $1000 cars and drive to Lexington or Cincinnati to work. Without an education and no vocational skills, they get service oriented low paying jobs. One family I know at the end of the road has two kids. The mother cleans at the Robertson County nursing home. He was driving to Cincinnati and said by the time he paid for getting there and back, he didn't clear enough to justify it. Now he does odd farm jobs and was raising bottle calves on about 4 acres until the market took a dive. He said he lost all his investment in his last group of calves. IDK if I would have the motivation to keep going.

 

[slick4591]

This timeline shows some interesting facts. Seems most people only want to start around 1095 when they want to blame the Crusades on the Christians. Looks to me like the Muslims were following teachings prior to that.

 

[Margonme]

This timeline shows some interesting facts. Seems most people only want to start around 1095 when they want to blame the Crusades on the Christians. Looks to me like the Muslims were following teachings prior to that.

I am not picking on you Slick but is that link to a paper that is Christian based? I noticed when I was reading some articles on whether Islam teaches violence that I had to be careful of the source. I found references defending the Islamic faith by writers who have their own horse in the race. Works both ways. I noticed the reference that Gizmom provided was Christian based. Obviously, they are going to feather their own nest.

It is a challenge finding material that is independent, objective research on this topic. If the reference you provided is affiliated with a Christian writer or researcher, we ought to be skeptical. I read some on the link. Seems to be consistent with what I have read about the Crilusades.

 

[Bigfoot]

This timeline shows some interesting facts. Seems most people only want to start around 1095 when they want to blame the Crusades on the Christians. Looks to me like the Muslims were following teachings prior to that.

Interesting reading. I don't care if a Christian did write it

 

[slick4591]

Is that to say the history is false because a Christian documented it? I'm digging into the webs of my brain here, but this pretty well lines up with my world history back in high school. I have no idea if the teacher or author of the book was Christian or not.

 

[TexasBred]

:banana:

This timeline shows some interesting facts. Seems most people only want to start around 1095 when they want to blame the Crusades on the Christians. Looks to me like the Muslims were following teachings prior to that.

Only for about 400 years at that time. :shock:


http://www.strangenotions.com/the-crusd ... and-truth/

 

[Margonme]

Is that to say the history is false because a Christian documented it? I'm digging into the webs of my brain here, but this pretty well lines up with my world history back in high school. I have no idea if the teacher or author of the book was Christian or not.

No sir. But it raises the proverbial red flag.

As a person who does not have a horse in the race, I am an atheist so I put no faith in either religion, I sometimes wonder if both sides are still fighting the Holy War.

All we need to do now is get the Jews involved.

:banana:

 

[slick4591]

I just noticed that the timeline appears to be authored by Austin Cline an Agnosticism & Atheism Expert.

 

[Margonme]

I just noticed that the timeline appears to be authored by Austin Cline an Agnosticism & Atheism Expert.

I already saw that. It adds credibility in my opinion.