More on Auto Makers, Auto Workers, Execs

[HerefordSire]

Here is the real underlying issue and it doesn't just pertain to the auto industry:

If the IRS were to tax a company's earnings before executive pay instead of after executive pay, all the issues would go away. If a company is coming in above earnings expectations, what do you think is going to happen? The other employee pay really doesn't make much of a difference because the executives are going to try to acquire them for as little as possible so there will not be as much fluctuation is this pay according to the IRS and the company. The large shareholders like Carl Icahn are about the only ones than can group enough shareholder power together to convince congress to change the laws.

 

[KenB]

I believe the $70 per hour is what the company figures it cost per hourly employee, they add on all the benefits bosses pay office help etc cost. The actual hourly pay per hour is closer to $25.

 

[HerefordSire]

Here is the real underlying issue and it doesn't just pertain to the auto industry:

If the IRS were to tax a company's earnings before executive pay instead of after executive pay, all the issues would go away. If a company is coming in above earnings expectations, what do you think is going to happen? The other employee pay really doesn't make much of a difference because the executives are going to try to acquire them for as little as possible so there will not be as much fluctuation is this pay according to the IRS and the company. The large shareholders like Carl Icahn are about the only ones than can group enough shareholder power together to convince congress to change the laws.

This is what the want you to believe...and it may be true...but it is not the root of the issue.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/105061- ... _commented

 

[Crowderfarms]

I dont pity any auto maker thinking that a new pick up is worth 50 thousand +. What duty does the government have to bail out any private sector business? I realize there's a lot of jobs at stake. Bailing them out is not going to put money in the public's pocket, to purchase a new vehicle. I feel we're whooping a dead Horse.

 

[KenB]

According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. -

 

[Jim62]

Probably a lot of that must be in those "other benefits" , whatever that may be.

The postal circus is real good at that pay thing (for publication). They can easily prove that the average grunt worker is making over $150,00 per year. I never did understand how they figured that...........

 

[HOSS]

I believe that a CEO that makes a company grow and prosper is worth the millions that they pay him. The ones that run it into the ground with bad decisions, debt and sloppy business practices should be fired with no parachutes or severance. That being said I do not believe that we should worry about CEO pay vs. the hourly guy. Take GM's CEO....I think his name is Wagner. It was reported that he makes 14 million annualy. That is a huge salary no doubt but lets look at it in the overall scheme. If GM cut his salary completely they would not save enough money to pay the light bill for their factories just in Michigan. Cutting the CEO salary at GM will not save them. Paying that same salary to someone that has a clue about how to truly run a business can save them. If they find that someone he is worth every penny and more of the 14 million to both GM and to the American economy where job stabilization will improve and everybody is happy. CEO salaries are not the problem.........CEO's that don't have a clue about how to run the business is the problem.

 

[Ryder]

I believe that a CEO that makes a company grow and prosper is worth the millions that they pay him. The ones that run it into the ground with bad decisions, debt and sloppy business practices should be fired with no parachutes or severance. That being said I do not believe that we should worry about CEO pay vs. the hourly guy. Take GM's CEO....I think his name is Wagner. It was reported that he makes 14 million annualy. That is a huge salary no doubt but lets look at it in the overall scheme. If GM cut his salary completely they would not save enough money to pay the light bill for their factories just in Michigan. Cutting the CEO salary at GM will not save them. Paying that same salary to someone that has a clue about how to truly run a business can save them. If they find that someone he is worth every penny and more of the 14 million to both GM and to the American economy where job stabilization will improve and everybody is happy. CEO salaries are not the problem.........CEO's that don't have a clue about how to run the business is the problem.

Well said.

 

[Alberta farmer]

Caught a bit of the senate hearings on the auto industry on BNN the other day. The CEO of Ford gave a pretty good talk on the situation as well as the UAW president. Ford, at least, had been turning the situation around and had actually posted a first quarter profit before they got slammed by the financial crisis. They had a plan and it was working.
The problem all goes back to the mess the bankers got us into? A credit crunch that brought the economy to its knees? People stop buying/investing when the money dries up?
The UAW president said the union has given up many concessions and actually the big three's labor costs are almost on par with foreign domestic carmakers. He said in fact if union members worked for free the industry would still be in serious trouble!
I don't have a problem with a man making a decent living wage. They spend their money on things that benifit the whole economy? If every worker in the USA only got a subsistance wage who's going to buy my beef? Higher wages are a good thing for a country, in my opinion...the alternative is to live in a country like China or India where a couple of bowls of rice a day is about as good as it gets!
What happens if the big three go down? Who will pick up the tab for not only the out of work auto worker but all the people who live off them? I think it will cost a ton of money and send America into a complete wreck!
And lets remember the bailout money is a loan to get them over a rough spot...not free money.

 

[flaboy]

Just yesterday a guy called a radio station I listen to. He said he has buddy working at the big 3 who sits and puts stickers on frames as they come down the line. He has been there around 15 years. He is making $80/hour doing this. This is NOT the burdened rate. I suspect the published ~$30/hour is the average for new hires to the old timers. He said due to the union the most senior get the jobs by just applying. If they don't know how they have to train him to do it.

Now this is hearsay as it was just a caller but back in the 80's I had a cousin working at one of the big 3 with an air gun running nuts on bumpers making $33/hour.

Do ya think maybe these guys aren't really worth all that? Heck they come down here a lot retired on pensions making more than I do working my normal job and the farm.

 

[Limomike]

Just yesterday a guy called a radio station I listen to. He said he has buddy working at the big 3 who sits and puts stickers on frames as they come down the line. He has been there around 15 years. He is making $80/hour doing this. This is NOT the burdened rate. I suspect the published ~$30/hour is the average for new hires to the old timers. He said due to the union the most senior get the jobs by just applying. If they don't know how they have to train him to do it.

Now this is hearsay as it was just a caller but back in the 80's I had a cousin working at one of the big 3 with an air gun running nuts on bumpers making $33/hour.

Do ya think maybe these guys aren't really worth all that? Heck they come down here a lot retired on pensions making more than I do working my normal job and the farm.

HOw much is anyone really worth? All depends on who you ask I guess.

 

[BeefmasterB]

Just yesterday a guy called a radio station I listen to. He said he has buddy working at the big 3 who sits and puts stickers on frames as they come down the line. He has been there around 15 years. He is making $80/hour doing this. This is NOT the burdened rate. I suspect the published ~$30/hour is the average for new hires to the old timers. He said due to the union the most senior get the jobs by just applying. If they don't know how they have to train him to do it.

Now this is hearsay as it was just a caller but back in the 80's I had a cousin working at one of the big 3 with an air gun running nuts on bumpers making $33/hour.

Do ya think maybe these guys aren't really worth all that? Heck they come down here a lot retired on pensions making more than I do working my normal job and the farm.

HOw much is anyone really worth? All depends on who you ask I guess.

What are the union workers worth? Here's what they're worth:

CNN: (11/20/08) "Dow closes below 8,000 mark amid auto industry concerns".

 

[jcummins]

Any company that provides their own pension is headed for trouble. Over time the pension becomes bloated, and the benefits simply outstrip the ability of the company to maintain.

Guess what large entity still does these pensions…..the government. Washington….take a clue. The evidence is all right there. Whose going to bail out the government????

 

[john250]

I dont pity any auto maker thinking that a new pick up is worth 50 thousand +.

Yeah, I sure agree with that!

I wonder which rescue plan will do the most to keep pickup prices down. Where does any of this stuff hit the road? When we have finally decided to buy another one. Or the old one dies. Will it cost more than now, or less? And do you count your higher (likely) taxes into the equation?

 

[Oldtimer]

You should have seen the look on the Big 3 automakers execs faces when in the hearings the other day, one of the Congressmen asked if they would be willing to limit their salaries (including perks and stock options) to $1 Million a year value if they get their taxpayer funded bailouts/loans :???:

You could have run a Mack truck thru their dropped jaws- but none would agree to it.... ;-)

 

[Limomike]

If concessions are going to be made in any labor work force, then the execs need to make the first move to do so. According to the latest stats; the Big 3 labor force had a package deal of about $73 per person, and the Japanese cars around $45. Concessions were made in the airline industry with the unions, and that is precisely what needs to be done with the Big 3. At this point it is a little too late I think. Too many folks cant afford a 15-30K car anymore.

 

[Oldtimer]

Too many folks cant afford a 15-30K car anymore.

Or a 40-50K work/feed pickup... :roll: Its almost impossible to get a plain jane new work truck anymore without all the stereo radios and CD stereos and computer junk on the dash...My wifes new 3/4 ton- which I use somtimes for trailering-and planned to convert to a feed truck in a few years- has so many gadgets and gizmos and computer junk that we've had it a year and still haven't got most of it figured out .... :shock: And all I wanted was a plain old 4 wheel drive 3/4 ton truck- but couldn't even find any of those on the lot anymore.....

 

[jcummins]

All that extra computer stuff and gizmos as you called it, doesn't add near as much cost as you think. That's the reason you can't find the plain jane pickup….it wouldn't be that much less and no one would buy it for the difference between it and the so called loaded one. So the $25K plain jane pickup we all want….they can't or won't build.

 

[Txwalt]

Honda and Toyota are not making 3/4 ton diesels. The big 3 owns that market.

I wonder how much the emission control standards are jacking the price up? On another topic I think diesel prices are up because of the government imposed lower sulpher diesel.

I wonder how much a low end vehicle would cost if all the enviromental emission controls and safety features were removed. I'm amazed with all the technological advances we have had in the past 20 years why automobile prices havn't gone down. I'm sure ya'll have seen all robotics involved in the assembly line on TV.

Walt

 

[jcummins]

You are correct….and with the hay hauling etc….I'd hate to do without the diesel.

I have asked to who ever will listen as to why diesel, which use to be CHEAPER than regular gas, is now for about 6 years, .60 to a $1 more than regular gas.

I bet they would be a LOT cheaper without all the regulated epa crap. And as to fuel mileage, one of the very best cars I ever had was an 88 Olds, with the 3.8 liter motor. That is a 20 year old car, full size car, and it got 27.5 mpg on the highway, and ran great while doing it. The government is forcing the car companies to get better gas mileage out of the cars, and at the same time mandating the epa stuff which kills the mileage. If you take the epa crap off them, I'd bet we would routinely see 40mpg.