Making a murderer

[bball]

Has anyone else watched this documentary. Just finished last episode, and my head is absolutely spinning. Manitowoc, WI is about one of the last places on earth I would want to be. For a multitude of reasons...

 

[M-5]

Yes I finished it several weeks ago. I am Of the impression he is innocent and one of his brothers killed her and the sherriff dept framed him.

 

[bball]

Yes I finished it several weeks ago. I am Of the impression he is innocent and one of his brothers killed her and the sherriff dept framed him.

I tend to agree with you (although I just couldn't put my finger on who killed her) the entire thing is so completely disturbing. Especially the local sheriffs dept actions and the initial attorney for his nephew. That kid never had a prayer.

 

[J&D Cattle]

My wife and I are through episode 8. The whole thing has made me scratch my head. I simply can't believe that law enforcement was allowed to act the way they were. The interrogation of his nephew was unbelievable. It's obvious this kid is saying whatever you want to hear and the detectives are eating it up.

I too think he is innocent.

 

[Bigfoot]

Wow, I just finished it. I was wanting to start a thread, and thought people would think I was strange for watching. I say they are guilty. I think there is details they didn't put in the documentary. I'm not saying I'm a good judge of character, but the whole family seemed shady to me.

 

[greybeard]

Wow, I just finished it. I was wanting to start a thread, and thought people would think I was strange for watching. I say they are guilty. I think there is details they didn't put in the documentary. I'm not saying I'm a good judge of character, but the whole family seemed shady to me.

Care to share those missing 'details' with the rest of us?

 

[Son of Butch]

Saddest thing is an innocent girl is dead. Bad police work doesn't mean O.J. wasn't involved in the murder of Ron Goldman another innocent victim. I think the guy was involved or knows of others who were, police just did sloppy job framing him.

 

[Bigfoot]

Wow, I just finished it. I was wanting to start a thread, and thought people would think I was strange for watching. I say they are guilty. I think there is details they didn't put in the documentary. I'm not saying I'm a good judge of character, but the whole family seemed shady to me.

Care to share those missing 'details' with the rest of us?

Only stuff I've read. May not be any more truthful, than the stuff we post The bone fragments they found in a rock pile were only found because of the nephews confession. Steven had been calling this girl for two days I think. Doing the star whatever, that hides your number from being seen. A couple of other things that aren't coming to mind.

Edited to add:
They found Stevens sweat in the car. That was never mentioned in the documentary. Also much was made of the nephews original lawyers trying to get him to plead guilty. They obviously knew the state had a rock solid case against him. He should hav plead guilty, and testified against the uncle. He could have gotten 20 years, and would have been eligible for parole in time to have a life. That was why they pushed him to confess.

 

[bball]

I have read that argument also, that evidence was 'left out' of documentary, but have yet to read about any serious physical evidence being identified as 'excluded' by documentary. The big question (causes me to doubt steven)for me is, where is the bloodspatter (or any other physical DNA ) in Stevens house or garage? Also, the fact that her cell phone had voice mail messages deleted that 'no one' seems to know how, why or who..even after her death. The whole thing with Steven just is illogical. Guy has finally been freed after 18 yrs unjustly imprisoned, life has turned for better, has a major lawsuit with county that he is certain to gain some money from, he is somewhat of a state celebrity now as poster boy for change to WI legal system and he is going to murder this young girl, knowing she can easily be traced back to him, his residence, etc. Just doesn't add up. I know the whole family appears below average intelligence, but what is his motive to do it? I guess the whole thing just bothers me. As far as his nephews testimony, that kid nevery had an original idea..ever, just regurgitating whatever the 2 detectives wanted or planted in his feeble mind.

 

[Bigfoot]

That bunch is line bred, more than old sorrel, and slow. No telling how tight they'd stick together. Also, they have proven the girl was placed in the suv while deceased. One explanation is, that she was murdered somewhere else. Went there out of fear or force and shot, placed in a large plastic bag, hauled back in the suv, and placed straight on a fire.

 

[greybeard]

Also much was made of the nephews original lawyers trying to get him to plead guilty. They obviously knew the state had a rock solid case against him. He should hav plead guilty, and testified against the uncle. He could have gotten 20 years, and would have been eligible for parole in time to have a life. That was why they pushed him to confess.

maybe. I wouldn't confess to anything if I knew I were innocent. And..there may (or may not) have been another reason for trying to get him to confess.
If they were court appointed lawyers, it's to their financial benefit to get the case over as quickly as possible--ie, for the defendant to plead out or confess, so they can move on to a better paying case. Wisconsin's court appointed attorneys get $40/hr which is the lowest in the country. I'm not convinced either way regarding guilty/innocent, but the police work seems shoddy--as others have said.

I sure wish I could find a family attorney that worked for $40/hr.

A study conducted by the Sixth Amendment Center showed Wisconsin court-appointed defense attorneys were not being paid enough to provide effective counsel to poor criminal defendants.

States are constitutionally obligated to provide court-appointed defense lawyers to people who cannot afford them. The study found Wisconsin’s compensation rate for court-appointed defense attorneys is $40 an hour, which is the lowest in the country.

In an email to The Badger Herald, Cecelia Klingele, assistant professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School, said low compensation rates often stop lawyers with other options from taking criminal cases.

“The work then goes to lawyers with the least experience or with the worst prospects of finding other work,” Klingele said. “This raises serious quality control issues.”

According to David Carroll, executive director of Sixth Amendment Center, the study evaluated compensation rates around the country and surveyed criminal defense lawyers to understand how the rates affected their decisions to take defense cases.

The study reported the prescribed $40 an hour rate was too low, Carroll said. When compared with the compensation rate of $90 an hour in South Dakota, where costs of living are not too high, Wisconsin’s rate is less than half, he said.

Wisconsin’s compensation to court-appointed defense attorneys is a flat rate, while other states also include compensation for overhead costs as well as the flat fee, Carroll said.

Klingele said receiving a flat fee as compensation reduced a lawyer’s ability to give effective counsel. This is because lawyers then take on several cases at once and are unable to give enough time to each client. This prevents them from engaging in effective fact investigation and legal research, she said.

“Flat fees encourage lawyers to take shortcuts in representing clients or face a significant financial loss,” Klingele said.

 

[bball]

That bunch is line bred, more than old sorrel, and slow. No telling how tight they'd stick together. Also, they have proven the girl was placed in the suv while deceased. One explanation is, that she was murdered somewhere else. Went there out of fear or force and shot, placed in a large plastic bag, hauled back in the suv, and placed straight on a fire.

I would have a MUCH easier time believing this over the 'testimony' of the nephew as to what occurred. Explains why her blood was in back of RAV4. Wouldn't be any reason to load her into RAV4 if she was murdered in house or garage. Now, to question this theory: why would there have been 11 shell casings and the one 'found' bullet(with her DNA) in the garage if she had been shot somewhere else. Also, why were her charred bones found in 3 different locations?? I really don't get this part at all (presuming she was cremated in the burn pit behind the house). What about the one juror that was excused (he had very strong feelings that there was just not enough evidence to convict) initially, 7 said not guilty, 3 said guilty, 2 undecided. Very compelling stuff. I would have had a very hard time voting guilty (based on what we had available in documentary). Just didn't seem like it was proved 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that he was in fact guilty of murder.

 

[Bigfoot]

The reasonable doubt is what I go back to:
Steven had been calling her (repeatedly) with his number hidden
Steven was the last person to see her alive
People had seen her a dozen times that day, and nobody after she left his house
Bones in 3 locations at his house-----I think the body proved hard to dispose of
The shell casings were neither here or there for me. Lots of buildings here are littered with shell casings.
He had a more devious past, than the documentary showed
Me personally, and I know many here don't trus law enforcement, but I do----------I can't see the officers taking chances........Moving a dead body, burning a body, driving the vehicle around etc. if the guy had been caught with some drugs, maybe, just maybe a crooked cop would do that, but nobody would find a dead body at point A, and go through that kind of trouble to get it to point B.

 

[M-5]

Stevens blood found in the car from a wound that was healing and scabbed. The DNA on the hood latch could have been planted also. Remember they quarantined the place for over a week . plenty of time to plant evidence. What about the officer calling in a plate # before the car was found?? What about 3 distinct burn sites . How about the cousin and brother that both alibi each other out . Im not saying he does not have his faults but he is not guilty. His mind does not work well enough to clean a single wide of all DNA and a Garage of all blood and mess up putting his dna in car. His attorney said something that helps me believe it.
"steven may be quilty of a lot of things but housekeeping is not one of them " it was also proven that a body can not be burned like it was from a open fire where they say it was burned.

 

[M-5]

The reasonable doubt is what I go back to:
Steven had been calling her (repeatedly) with his number hidden
Steven was the last person to see her alive
People had seen her a dozen times that day, and nobody after she left his house
Bones in 3 locations at his house-----I think the body proved hard to dispose of
The shell casings were neither here or there for me. Lots of buildings here are littered with shell casings.
He had a more devious past, than the documentary showed
Me personally, and I know many here don't trus law enforcement, but I do----------I can't see the officers taking chances........Moving a dead body, burning a body, driving the vehicle around etc. if the guy had been caught with some drugs, maybe, just maybe a crooked cop would do that, but nobody would find a dead body at point A, and go through that kind of trouble to get it to point B.

First the sheriff and DA were made look like fools because of previous conviction. They were going to be personally liable for the suit. The sherriff said they could just kill him if they wanted to get rid of him. Does that sound like a law enforcement officer that is honest ?? the testimony at trial did not line up with depositions. The DA prosecuting him was a sexual predator and the list goes on and on

 

[Bigfoot]

This is the best discussion we've had in a long long time. I wish I didn't have to go out, and fight Jonas some more.

Yea, there house keeping skills left much to be desired. The whole place turned my stomach.

The cop calling in the plate on a phone was kind of odd. Perhaps, he was off duty, and wanted to be watching for the plate? Perhaps he was in a dead spot for radio service. I rent communication towers. That is a serious problem here. Guys are off and on personal cell phones frequently to do their job---------May not explain it, but it is an explanation


The exboyfriend aroused my suspicion. I still think Steven did it, and the nephew helped to some extent.

 

[Bigfoot]

The reasonable doubt is what I go back to:
Steven had been calling her (repeatedly) with his number hidden
Steven was the last person to see her alive
People had seen her a dozen times that day, and nobody after she left his house
Bones in 3 locations at his house-----I think the body proved hard to dispose of
The shell casings were neither here or there for me. Lots of buildings here are littered with shell casings.
He had a more devious past, than the documentary showed
Me personally, and I know many here don't trus law enforcement, but I do----------I can't see the officers taking chances........Moving a dead body, burning a body, driving the vehicle around etc. if the guy had been caught with some drugs, maybe, just maybe a crooked cop would do that, but nobody would find a dead body at point A, and go through that kind of trouble to get it to point B.

First the sheriff and DA were made look like fools because of previous conviction. They were going to be personally liable for the suit. The sherriff said they could just kill him if they wanted to get rid of him. Does that sound like a law enforcement officer that is honest ?? the testimony at trial did not line up with depositions. The DA prosecuting him was a sexual predator and the list goes on and on

The DA being a perv was a curve ball.

 

[M-5]

Reasonable doubt!!!! the ex boyfriend was heading up the search party he figured out her password and deleted messages , she lived with another dude "as Friends" her brother is also hiding something.

So an officer calls in a plate # before car is found gives a description of vehicle and I have seen and witnessed enough LEO procedures to know that he was looking at the vehicle at that time. He was in the house 3 days later and the key appeared.

 

[bball]

The reasonable doubt is what I go back to:
Steven had been calling her (repeatedly) with his number hidden
Steven was the last person to see her alive
People had seen her a dozen times that day, and nobody after she left his house
Bones in 3 locations at his house-----I think the body proved hard to dispose of
The shell casings were neither here or there for me. Lots of buildings here are littered with shell casings.
He had a more devious past, than the documentary showed
Me personally, and I know many here don't trus law enforcement, but I do----------I can't see the officers taking chances........Moving a dead body, burning a body, driving the vehicle around etc. if the guy had been caught with some drugs, maybe, just maybe a crooked cop would do that, but nobody would find a dead body at point A, and go through that kind of trouble to get it to point B.

First the sheriff and DA were made look like fools because of previous conviction. They were going to be personally liable for the suit. The sherriff said they could just kill him if they wanted to get rid of him. Does that sound like a law enforcement officer that is honest ?? the testimony at trial did not line up with depositions. The DA prosecuting him was a sexual predator and the list goes on and on

M-5 points out very important issues..namely motive for law enforcement to behave less than ethically. Steven stood to gain potentially 36 million dollars that would have come from county coffers and of course the men personally responsible for his false imprisonment (as the insurance company decided they would not be responsible to pay for the county and it's employees negligence) that's some strong motivation. Clearly the local sheriffs were not ethical men based on any number of unethical behaviors: ignoring the facts the first time(and allowing true criminal to remain at large and harm at least 2 other women) and allowing him to remain in prison despite a report from neighboring county LE that they may be holding the wrong man. The inconsistent testimonies, the botched logs, the miraculous pieces of evidence 'showing up' months after the initial search of premises. The local sheriff and DA had major motivation to bury steven, and not just because he was a dirt bag on the fringe of their community. They possibly stood to personally lose everything. Good call on the license plate number M5. Forgot that one too. Watched all 10 hrs straight last night (product of working nights for 20 years).

 

[M-5]

the kid is border lined retarded. I go back to when he was first arrested and he was asking about wrassling coming on TV. and then The attorney that took his case used the investigator to help build the prosecutions case. He stated that the details he described came from a book. Everything lines up with the storyline from the book and the movie . I think he thinks he participated but because of his mental handicap he can not disseminate reality from fiction .