make hamburger with unbred cows

[ny_grass]

I am not there. I haven't seen any pictures so I don't really know what is going on; BUT it is very possible for cows to NOT meet their nutritional needs on hay alone even at all they can eat. Has the hay been forage quality tested???

It has not; that's another good idea; appreciate it

 

[SRBeef]

I am a beginner with cattle so I have to be careful about passing out cattle advice.

One problem with your post is that you say it has been a rough year but don't really tell why you lost two calves or why 6 cows aren't bred. There may (or may not) be a lot more to the story than what you have said. You don't mention how old your calves are, etc. etc. You do say thay are "big". I will give you the benefit of the doubt that there were some circumstances that caused these multiple problems.

I did notice a real drop off in the condition of my cows in the month os before Nov 1 weaning. Nursing a large calf evidently takes a lot out of a cow, especially if they are also carrying next spring's calf. I also noticed that once I did wean - get the calves off of the cows, the cows seemed to come back into condition. I am looking for a strong 6 BCS going into a northern winter while developing next spring's calf.

The more I think about your hamburger plan, the more I think 2 wrongs don't make a right. Taking "skinny" cows and turning them into hamburger may leave you with some pretty unattractive "skinny" hamburger. Whether you want to calve in spring or fall, they need to be in some decent condition ASAP.

There were a couple good ideas posted above about breeding them and selling in the spring and buying some cows which are bred for spring calving. But if they are too skinny to even breed you need to address the "skinny" part asap. Unless there are some other major problems, weaning may help a lot to get some condition on them, from my recent experience. Get them some daily grain too for awhile in addition to your hay. "Complete Calf" bagged blends are not cheap but will put some weight on a cow fairly quickly. Or just given them some corn, etc every day along with the hay.

Whatever you do with them in the end, I think the number 1 goal would be to wean those calves and get the cows into some condition before we get any further into a N NY winter. jmho. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Please take the comments here as constructive help.

 

[Brandonm22]

I did notice a real drop off in the condition of my cows in the month os before Nov 1 weaning. Nursing a large calf evidently takes a lot out of a cow, especially if they are also carrying next spring's calf. I also noticed that once I did wean - get the calves off of the cows, the cows seemed to come back into condition. I am looking for a strong 6 BCS going into a northern winter while developing next spring's calf.

It is not the big calf that sucks down the cow in the last month. Actually he should be eating more forage and her milk quantity if anything is dropping in the sixth or seventh month of lactation. What hit you is October. forage quality drops tremendously after first frost and the cows go from grazing growing grass too dead grass and hay. The nutrient demands on the cow are the same but her plane of nutrition has suddenly declined. If you want to avoid that loss of condition in the future, either wean at first frost or be prepared to bump up the level of nutrition with stockpiledforage, pasture oats, or grain.

 

[KMacGinley]

"1. Will you manage your new herd as poorly as you have done with this one? 2 dead calves? Why? That is a 33 1/3% death loss.

2. Your cows are 3 and 4 year olds and you intend to beef them out because you didn't get them bred?"

Everybody eventually comes across that one cow that won't settle. When they all won't settle, they all are bony, and the few calves that are born don't live long (barring some horrible plague of biblical proportions).......that is not 'grassfed' that is what we call "starving your cows". I hope he gets these poor animals too a stockyard before they drop dead over the winter.

I'm not starving my cows. They get 10 50lb bales of hay a day. That for 6 cows and 4 calves. There's usually hay left when I come to feed them again. They have a full tub of minerals, a salt lick and water at all times. I've wormed them twice and had people out to look at them; they assured me that they were "a little on skinny side" but that it was probably because they had big calves that weren't yet weened.

You wormed them twice with Basic H. Why not actually worm them with a Wormer that is approved.

You are telling us that you are feeding 10 head 500lbs of hay a day. By my calculation, that is 50 lbs each and they are still thin? Something does not compute.

 

[KMacGinley]

"1. Will you manage your new herd as poorly as you have done with this one? 2 dead calves? Why? That is a 33 1/3% death loss.

2. Your cows are 3 and 4 year olds and you intend to beef them out because you didn't get them bred?"

Everybody eventually comes across that one cow that won't settle. When they all won't settle, they all are bony, and the few calves that are born don't live long (barring some horrible plague of biblical proportions).......that is not 'grassfed' that is what we call "starving your cows". I hope he gets these poor animals too a stockyard before they drop dead over the winter.

My impression was that he didn't ever get a bull to breed them with. You have a hard time getting any to settle without a bull, but that's just me.

 

[KMacGinley]

If I had to guess, your biggest problem is that you actually believe what you read in stockman grassfarmer, which for the most part is composed of fantasy and wishful thinking.

 

[dun]

If I had to guess, your biggest problem is that you actually believe what you read in stockman grassfarmer, which for the most part is composed of fantasy and wishful thinking.

BRAVO

 

[ny_grass]

If I had to guess, your biggest problem is that you actually believe what you read in stockman grassfarmer, which for the most part is composed of fantasy and wishful thinking.

That may be true, but you gotta start somewhere. It's because of Salatin's books and Stockman grass farmer that moved from the city and bought a farm and animals. I'll get back with you in a couple of years as to whether they've led me astray ;-)

 

[ny_grass]

Salatin is a nut job. Kit pharo is a nut job to.

A nut job! Ok. Salatin is one of the most successful and respected farmers in the country. He's inspired scores of people and produces hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenues from a variety of animal products a year. I'll take that nutiness any day ;-)

As for Pharo; he seems to me to be entirely reasonable. He says use cattle that do well with minimal inputs and keep the body size moderate. Not much controversy there.

 

[KMacGinley]

If I had to guess, your biggest problem is that you actually believe what you read in stockman grassfarmer, which for the most part is composed of fantasy and wishful thinking.

That may be true, but you gotta start somewhere. It's because of Salatin's books and Stockman grass farmer that moved from the city and bought a farm and animals. I'll get back with you in a couple of years as to whether they've led me astray ;-)

Salatin is a nut job. Kit pharo is a nut job to.

I think Salatin has a lot of good ideas and Kit is a master Marketer.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

regarding animals over the age of 30 months. The processor I use will take them, but for a rather large sum in addition to the regular kill/cut/wrap price and you do not get anything pertaining to the spine returned. (no T-bones etc.).

Why would they charge you more for older animals?

Due to the risk of BSE, Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (mad-cow disease).

The spinal columns and brains, if I remember correctly, are tested for the prions. The facility I use will do an animal over 30 months, the cost goes up because they cannot/will not have any other animals being processed at the same time as the older one so as not to risk any possible contamination. Its their way of covering their a$$, and I can't blame them for that. That is pretty much how they explained it to me.

As dun suggested, take a fecal sample to be tested, then you'll know the status of internal parasites.

And as Brandonm22 wrote, the quality of the forage changes after frost. And it certainly sounds like the animals need a bit more nutrients. Have the hay tested. One sample shouldn't break the bank. One sample would give you an idea of what they are eating, provided all the bales of hay came off the same field.

Katherine

 

[ny_grass]

As dun suggested, take a fecal sample to be tested, then you'll know the status of internal parasites.

And as Brandonm22 wrote, the quality of the forage changes after frost. And it certainly sounds like the animals need a bit more nutrients. Have the hay tested. One sample shouldn't break the bank. One sample would give you an idea of what they are eating, provided all the bales of hay came off the same field.

I called today, a place called Dairy One, sorta local about the forage sample. Most of the people I talked to today weren't really sure where to get a worm test; said a vet might be best. I just found my camera; I'll try to post some pics so that people can see what I consider "pretty skinny."

 

[Workinonit Farm]

I called today, a place called Dairy One, sorta local about the forage sample. Most of the people I talked to today weren't really sure where to get a worm test; said a vet might be best. I just found my camera; I'll try to post some pics so that people can see what I consider "pretty skinny."[/quote]

Just about any vet office could do it for you. (the fecal sample) Heck, even a local extension agent....possibly.... as long as they have a microscope and know what to look for.

Katherine

 

[KMacGinley]

NY-Grass- If you haven't wormed the cows since you have had them, spend the $4 and worm them. You are not going to hurt anything with Ivermec and if they are not wormy, you will prevent lice on them for this winter. The tests will cost more than the wormer before it is all said and done. They are not poodles.
All you have to do is pour the correct dosage on their back and you are done.

 

[ny_grass]

NY-Grass- If you haven't wormed the cows since you have had them, spend the $4 and worm them. You are not going to hurt anything with Ivermec and if they are not wormy, you will prevent lice on them for this winter. The tests will cost more than the wormer before it is all said and done. They are not poodles.
All you have to do is pour the correct dosage on their back and you are done.

Thanks for the advice, KMacGinley. I might not use Ivermec because, if I beef any of them soon, I won't be able to sell it as grassfed, chemical-free, etc... I think the organic standard allows ivermec but not for animals that are going to the butcher soon.

All, I've taken some pictures of my animals. Sorry I didn't do this earlier but we had a missing camera for a couple of days.

See: http://picasaweb.google.com/botemout/Sk ... 6YEPr5uP0#

Thanks.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

All, I've taken some pictures of my animals.

You're right. Those are some skinny cows. In my neck of the woods they would be considered 'poor'. The one calf in the first pic looks good.

As to making them into hamburger, once they are skinned, no feet, no heads, no guts, there's not much of them left for burger. Either way, whether you keep to re-sell, or butcher, they need groceries.

As far as 'organic' goes, was/is their hay certified organic? The pastures they grazed on certified organic? If not, technically, they can not be considered organic, but they can be considered 'natural'.

Katherine

 

[ny_grass]

All, I've taken some pictures of my animals.

You're right. Those are some skinny cows. In my neck of the woods they would be considered 'poor'. The one calf in the first pic looks good.

As to making them into hamburger, once they are skinned, no feet, no heads, no guts, there's not much of them left for burger. Either way, whether you keep to re-sell, or butcher, they need groceries.

As far as 'organic' goes, was/is their hay certified organic? The pastures they grazed on certified organic? If not, technically, they can not be considered organic, but they can be considered 'natural'.

Katherine

Yeah, I think all the calves look good (probably the main reason why the cows don't ;-)

The hay hasn't been certified organic but comes from a hayfield that I know hasn't had anything put on it for 15 years at least.

Bummer to hear from someone who knows that they are as bad as I'd feared.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Bummer to hear from someone who knows that they are as bad as I'd feared.

You're 'gut' instinct was right. Yes, the calves do look pretty good.

Be prepared for others comments.

At this point, you may want to go ahead and toss some pour-on on them anyhow, hold off on butchering (if that's the direction you choose) and get a little weight on them prior to slaughter. They could still be considered 'natural' with the pour-on (de-wormer).

If possible, pen those girls separate from the rest and start getting something else into them besides hay. Some type of feed, corn is a good place to start, but start slow and small amounts a nd build to larger amounts gradually. (if that's the route you choose).

Good luck.

Katherine

 

[Rustler9]

I probably should keep out of this but you need to wean theose calves asap. Hopefully, you have a place to separate those calves to keep them away from the cows. Worm the cows and get them some feed and I mean start feeding them. If you don't have a place to keep the calves you don't need to be in the cattle business. How old are those calves? Wean calves at no more than six months old. These cows look like a friend of mine's cattle down here. And he wonders why his cows look like heck. Says he has no place to wean his calves. Those cows are you ng cows, get them in better condition and get them bred. Start taking care of them. Good luck with them. They can be turned around, no need to try to butcher them. There's not going to be any meat there anyway.

 

[ny_grass]

I probably should keep out of this but you need to wean theose calves asap. Hopefully, you have a place to separate those calves to keep them away from the cows. Worm the cows and get them some feed and I mean start feeding them. If you don't have a place to keep the calves you don't need to be in the cattle business. How old are those calves? Wean calves at no more than six months old. These cows look like a friend of mine's cattle down here. And he wonders why his cows look like heck. Says he has no place to wean his calves. Those cows are you ng cows, get them in better condition and get them bred. Start taking care of them. Good luck with them. They can be turned around, no need to try to butcher them. There's not going to be any meat there anyway.

Thanks for the feedback. The oldest of the calves is a little over 7 months. The youngest turned 6 months yesterday. If they have worms (or other parasites) wouldn't the calves also have them and wouldn't they also be looking rough? Yeah, I think people have convinced me that butchering them now would be a bad idea.