make hamburger with unbred cows

[ny_grass]

I probably should keep out of this but you need to wean theose calves asap. Hopefully, you have a place to separate those calves to keep them away from the cows. Worm the cows and get them some feed and I mean start feeding them. If you don't have a place to keep the calves you don't need to be in the cattle business. How old are those calves? Wean calves at no more than six months old. These cows look like a friend of mine's cattle down here. And he wonders why his cows look like heck. Says he has no place to wean his calves. Those cows are you ng cows, get them in better condition and get them bred. Start taking care of them. Good luck with them. They can be turned around, no need to try to butcher them. There's not going to be any meat there anyway.

I'd planned on weaning the calves with 2 or 3 strands of electric fence so that they could near their moms but have no access to them.

 

[grannysoo]

If I had to guess, your biggest problem is that you actually believe what you read in stockman grassfarmer, which for the most part is composed of fantasy and wishful thinking.

Stockman Grassfarmer, Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, and an honest government in Washington all have something in common.....

That may be true, but you gotta start somewhere. It's because of Salatin's books and Stockman grass farmer that moved from the city and bought a farm and animals. I'll get back with you in a couple of years as to whether they've led me astray ;-)

I totally agree. That's one of the places that I started too. Still have a subscription to the rag. I'm glad that you moved from the city and bought a farm and animals. I'm glad that you are trying to get educated about the best way to do things. As for taking a couple of years to find out? Take that time and take that loss of profits and life if you wish. You are being led astray.

I do believe that Salatin's books and intentions are good, but reference the Santa Clause comments above. In a perfect world, everything would be perfect and his systems and ideas would work. The world however is not perfect.

The one thing I ask you to do in this situation is:

Follow the Money

If Salatin is making so much money farming, why isn't he farming? Looks to me like he's spending a lot of time on books, seminars, and other money making projects other than farming. Perhaps the only reason that he's farming at all is to give him "credibility".

Organic is going to turn out to be a complete and total sham. At one time, I thought it was going to be the big wave of the future, but I don't think so anymore. I don't worry about selling organic meats. I sell a meat that is free of antibiotics and hormones, is pastured, is fed quality hay, fed minerals, and is finished with a small amount of corn based feed. I am also careful to work them in order to keep stress levels down, and have them killed and butchered in the most humane way. Works for me and my cows look the best they ever have looked.

As for your skinny cows, I've seen worse. Wean those babies, worm those adults, and get about raising cattle right. You've been given a lot of good advice in this thread.

Listen to it.

Just my 2 cents worth, and that's probably worth less than a penny.

 

[Brandonm22]

Just sell the calves and the cows ASAP. Let somebody else feed them this winter. You can buy better cows come spring with what you will save not feeding this crew. IF you do try to winter the cows, they are going to have to be fed pretty heavy to get back too average body condition score given the weather you will face that far north. I hate to feed grain; but we are in early December, the cows will burn a lot of energy up there just trying to stay warm, and those cows looks 200+ pounds underweight each with the worst of winter ahead of them. Add 7 lbs of mixed ration (at least 16% protein) per head per day to their ration.

 

[KMacGinley]

NY-Grass: I would definetly wean the calves. I would worm everything, the cows are keeping the calves looking good at their own expense and the calves will go downhill with their worm load when you take away their milk source.

The hay that you are feeding them looks like grass hay and it would be fine for the cows under normal conditions, but you don't have that right now. You have an emergency on your hands if you want to do things right.

It will not be good enough hay for the calves once they are weaned if you expect them to grow. I would guess that you are trying to produce organic grassfed beef. That is fine if you know what you are doing and have the setup for it. You are doing it on a shoestring, which is tough. I think you have some very nice cows there, what I could see of them and their udders looked good. As was noted by another poster, you are not organic. Organic certification takes 3 years and under these circumstances even if you were organic, you are allowed, I believe to use ivomec in an emergency. I know that SGF tells you not to use wormers or the world will end, but they say a lot of things that if you stick with this long enough, you will find out aren't exactly true. I read it for entertainment more than anything , although as I said, earlier, I find Joel Salatin pretty interesting.

So go the natural route, worm them! and feed them. Here is what I would do If I was you:

1. Buy ivomec, it comes Generic pour it on while they are eating, do all of them, including the calves.

2. Wean the calves yesterday. You really need to have good facilities before you start with cattle but try the electric fence, if it is not a good fence, the calves will be back with the cows. Can you shut them in a barn?

3. Feed the cows some corn, I see a cornfield next door in that one picture, could you put the cows out on that and feed them some hay along with 5 or 6 lbs of corn a day? They will pick up ears the combine missed if the snow isn't too deep and eat leaves and husks. My cows are all out on stalks right now.

4. Feed the calves your grass hay for a few days while weaning them, then start them out slow on some feed. 2lbs a day corn/oats with 2lbs 34% protein pellets or soybean meal and freechoice hay and cut the bulls. Then you have to decide what you are going to do with them. Vaccinate them for IBR/BVD and the clostridials, repeat vaccination in 3 weeks. If you are going strictly grassfed, you may discontinue the grain if you can provide them with higher quality hay, (Or if you have a high quality hay available, forget the grain for the calves) if not, then increase the grain by 2 lbs a week (leaving the Pellets the same) after the 2nd round of shots. You can drop the oats out after a while.

5. Keep the cows on the grain while you are breeding them. 1 five gallon bucket of corn a day with freechoice hay should do alright for them to gain some weight, but once you let them get down like that it takes a while to get it back. Watch that your meekest cow gets to eat too.

6. If you are going to keep them, get a bull. Rent one, borrow one, but get those cows bred. You can sell them as fall calvers and buy what you want in the spring. Or keep them and calve them out, but you need to have good facilities and the ability to feed them well if you are going to keep them through the winter months nursing calves. On the other hand it gives you more space to grassfeed your butcher calves all summer if the cows aren't nursing then.

I apologize if I trampled your feelings earlier, but I have been raising cattle on my own for the past 28 years and have learned a thing or two along the way(before that I followed my dad and Grandpa around and learned from them). I too am intrigued by the grassfed thing, but know that it isn't as easy to do as some people say. PM me if I can be of further assistance or any assistance.

 

[Aero]

Do I have any reason to believe that the taste might not be top notch for my black angus? I'd think if it were whole beef hamburger that, despite being lean, it'd still taste okay?

it's not that easy. the only reason Angus are supposed to taste better is because they usually have more marbling [intramuscular fat (IMF)]. Body (waste) fat is a good indicator of the level of IMF. If they have lost a lot of condition, you can believe that their bodies have called on the fat reserves in their muscles for energy.

you will probably just have average ground beef. cooking prep and methods make a lot more difference than what breed they are.

 

[Brandonm22]

I doubt it will be even average ground beef. Average ground beef is 20-25% fat. LEAN ground beef is 5 to 12% fat. I don't see 2% body fat on those cows. It will just be ground up muscle and connective tissue with no fat to bind it. It will be fine in spaghetti meat sauce or as a pizza topping. Don't try to make hamburgers or meat loaf out of it though.

 

[Aero]

I don't see 2% body fat on those cows.

i havent seen them yet. are their pictures posted here somewhere?

 

[CKC1586]

a few pages up, here they are:
I guess I don't know how to make them show up ....

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't see 2% body fat on those cows.

i havent seen them yet. are their pictures posted here somewhere?

Here is a link to the pics...

http://picasaweb.google.com/botemout/Sk ... 6YEPr5uP0#

On a 1-9 body condition score scale most of the momas are a 2.

 

[ny_grass]

I doubt it will be even average ground beef. Average ground beef is 20-25% fat. LEAN ground beef is 5 to 12% fat. I don't see 2% body fat on those cows. It will just be ground up muscle and connective tissue with no fat to bind it. It will be fine in spaghetti meat sauce or as a pizza topping. Don't try to make hamburgers or meat loaf out of it though.

Yeah, I had no idea that they would be considered a 2 on a 9pt scale (as you said above). The idea of butchering them now is a non-starter. They need to be made whole again. Weaning calves, a wormer and grain it is.

 

[ny_grass]

Hi KMacGinley,

I'm not so much trying for an organic certification. They'll be natural grass-fed (raising the question, can I call them grassfed anymore after supplementing them with grain for a couple of months?).

Yup, weaning and worming.

I have a barn but I think I'm just going, with the help of a friend, to push the calves off to one side and run a couple of strands of electric between them. I've got a great energizer which puts out about 6,500 volts (10 joules, I think it is). They all respect it without a question.

What looks like corn is actually just overgrown weeds, golden rod, wild parsnip, burdock, etc... Another thing that I've been conflicted about is letting them back on the pasture. Since my first storm sometime around the 25th of October, I've had them in the pen that you see in the pictures. There were some days, especially in early Nov. when I probably should have let them back out there; the ground was pretty wet though and I didn't want to pug it up - there wasn't much grass on it anyway. So, they're going to just have to get a supplement(s) and hay. Don't know if it shown in any of those pictures but I've got a 20x20 wood structure almost built off behind and to the side of them. I'll move them there when it's done. Hopefully, I'll have found a supply of saw dust by then so that they can have mostly dry, eventually composting (and therefor somewhat warm) bedding.

Yeah, since I'm keeping them I'm back to needing a bull. The couple of contacts I have here couldn't help with a rental. There are probably some other people to talk to; just need to get a weekend day to do some driving (I dream of the day when my infrastructure is in place ...).

Anyway, thanks a lot for your feedback.
JR

NY-Grass: I would definetly wean the calves. I would worm everything, the cows are keeping the calves looking good at their own expense and the calves will go downhill with their worm load when you take away their milk source.

The hay that you are feeding them looks like grass hay and it would be fine for the cows under normal conditions, but you don't have that right now. You have an emergency on your hands if you want to do things right.

It will not be good enough hay for the calves once they are weaned if you expect them to grow. I would guess that you are trying to produce organic grassfed beef. That is fine if you know what you are doing and have the setup for it. You are doing it on a shoestring, which is tough. I think you have some very nice cows there, what I could see of them and their udders looked good. As was noted by another poster, you are not organic. Organic certification takes 3 years and under these circumstances even if you were organic, you are allowed, I believe to use ivomec in an emergency. I know that SGF tells you not to use wormers or the world will end, but they say a lot of things that if you stick with this long enough, you will find out aren't exactly true. I read it for entertainment more than anything , although as I said, earlier, I find Joel Salatin pretty interesting.

So go the natural route, worm them! and feed them. Here is what I would do If I was you:

1. Buy ivomec, it comes Generic pour it on while they are eating, do all of them, including the calves.

2. Wean the calves yesterday. You really need to have good facilities before you start with cattle but try the electric fence, if it is not a good fence, the calves will be back with the cows. Can you shut them in a barn?

3. Feed the cows some corn, I see a cornfield next door in that one picture, could you put the cows out on that and feed them some hay along with 5 or 6 lbs of corn a day? They will pick up ears the combine missed if the snow isn't too deep and eat leaves and husks. My cows are all out on stalks right now.

4. Feed the calves your grass hay for a few days while weaning them, then start them out slow on some feed. 2lbs a day corn/oats with 2lbs 34% protein pellets or soybean meal and frI'eechoice hay and cut the bulls. Then you have to decide what you are going to do with them. Vaccinate them for IBR/BVD and the clostridials, repeat vaccination in 3 weeks. If you are going strictly grassfed, you may discontinue the grain if you can provide them with higher quality hay, (Or if you have a high quality hay available, forget the grain for the calves) if not, then increase the grain by 2 lbs a week (leaving the Pellets the same) after the 2nd round of shots. You can drop the oats out after a while.

5. Keep the cows on the grain while you are breeding them. 1 five gallon bucket of corn a day with freechoice hay should do alright for them to gain some weight, but once you let them get down like that it takes a while to get it back. Watch that your meekest cow gets to eat too.

6. If you are going to keep them, get a bull. Rent one, borrow one, but get those cows bred. You can sell them as fall calvers and buy what you want in the spring. Or keep them and calve them out, but you need to have good facilities and the ability to feed them well if you are going to keep them through the winter months nursing calves. On the other hand it gives you more space to grassfeed your butcher calves all summer if the cows aren't nursing then.

I apologize if I trampled your feelings earlier, but I have been raising cattle on my own for the past 28 years and have learned a thing or two along the way(before that I followed my dad and Grandpa around and learned from them). I too am intrigued by the grassfed thing, but know that it isn't as easy to do as some people say. PM me if I can be of further assistance or any assistance.

 

[Brandonm22]

I doubt it will be even average ground beef. Average ground beef is 20-25% fat. LEAN ground beef is 5 to 12% fat. I don't see 2% body fat on those cows. It will just be ground up muscle and connective tissue with no fat to bind it. It will be fine in spaghetti meat sauce or as a pizza topping. Don't try to make hamburgers or meat loaf out of it though.

Yeah, I had no idea that they would be considered a 2 on a 9pt scale (as you said above). The idea of butchering them now is a non-starter. They need to be made whole again. Weaning calves, a wormer and grain it is.

It is pretty standard too periodically body condition score our cows to see how well they are doing on their feed and forage. 1 is just about dead and 9 is just about so overfed and obese that they waddle around.

Here is more information:

http://www.angus.org/performance/Docume ... rticle.pdf

IF you are going to keep the cows, you need to get the calves off of the cows; because at this point they don't have any body fat reserves left to put into the milk. ANY improvement in nutrition will just leave them in the milk (why some of us are scared of cows with really really high milk EPDs or cows with a dairy influence). IF they stop producing milk their nutritional needs will decrease and hopefully they can start putting weight back on.

 

[grannysoo]

Hi KMacGinley,

I'm not so much trying for an organic certification. They'll be natural grass-fed (raising the question, can I call them grassfed anymore after supplementing them with grain for a couple of months?).

Right now, the only think you can call them is poor and neglected. Don't worry about any title. Get them healthy and take it from there.

 

[SRBeef]

Hi KMacGinley,

I'm not so much trying for an organic certification. They'll be natural grass-fed (raising the question, can I call them grassfed anymore after supplementing them with grain for a couple of months?).

Right now, the only think you can call them is poor and neglected. Don't worry about any title. Get them healthy and take it from there.

I agree. Don't worry about what you call it or them. Just get them in good condition. I have been selling mine as natural beef, mostly grass fed with bit of corn to tame them and finish. Most folks just want the truth and a good product. There is pure "grassfed" beef that is not very edible too.

Folks want a good product. There is nothin wrong with giving them a bit of grain to tame them and help finish them.

I know this is one of the things that Joel Salatin makes a big thing of "no grain ever"... maybe in his location and situation in VA he can raise quality beef like that. I don't believe there is anything wrong with offering the cattle some free choice grain.

As you have found out, there are nutritional needs to be met, especially with a nursing cow, that just can not be met feeding them any old grass hay. "Dairy quality" hay maybe but even then there are some needed nutrients that may or may not be in that hay no matter how much of it they eat.

I think Salatin has some good points. He and others are concerned about excessive levels of fat in meat that we buy at the store. But as all of the innovators they tend to be extremely focused on ONE
way to do things. People want to know where their food comes from and what it has been fed. That is a good thing, I believe. There are also many reasons to try to buy locally raised food whenever possible.

Frankly I'm not sure that the word "organic" is really appropriate for beef. I was looking to buy a couple Herefords and went to look at some the seller made a big point of being "organic"....well they may have been "organic" but they sure looked sick even to a beginner like me. I could see one with obvious pinkeye, several had really runny noses....etc. I said no thanks.

There is nothing wrong with vaccinations - we vaccinate our kids don't we? De worming with Basic H may work. I don't want to say that it doesn't. I have a very good experienced vet that raises cattle himself. He feels there is nothing wrong with using Ivomec IF you follow label directions. There is a presribed amount to use on each animal depending on their weight. There is also a minimum withdrawal period prior to slaughter. I would pay attention to both of those. I skip the last deworm prior to slaughter so it is about 9 months between the last deworm and slaughter.

The question is, which is more desireable, cattle free of worms and parasites and then allowed an extended withdrawal period or cattle with worms and parasites that may or may not be removed with the Basic H? Maybe Salatin has a clean enough herd and large enough land area that he can keep his herd clean with just basic H in the water. I know I just can't manage that with my situation to even give it a try.

Looking at your cattle photos I don't think anyone here can say that they have worms etc but mostly look to my novice eye that they need more nutrition. But at this point it is hard to tell so maybe you do everything you can to get them back into condition. Do you have a good, experienced, cattle vet that you can have come over and give you his opinion? Maybe the basic H is working - its just hard to tell.

Kelp definitely has nutrients that are useful. I'm running a test on that myself. But I do offer my cattle Mineralyx which has some very difficult to supply minerals and vitamins in it. And I know the Mineralyx is a good clean product with just what it says on the spec sheet, no animal products and no ammoniated whatever... I look at it like giving your kids vitamins when you are not sure if they are getting everything they need in their food.

Mineralyx is expensive but it was suggested to me by a neighbor and it really works in my area. It supplies several nutrients that are known to be low in local WI soils such as selenium. IS there selenium in kelp? Darned if I know. I'm not going to take a chance. Things like copper, phosphorus, manganese, some vitamins etc are absolutely essential to healthy animals, especially healthy calves and easy calving. I have a feeling that there may be certain persistent herd problems which can be traced back to a shortage of one or more of these minute nutrients.

What we want to avoid is "excessive" and unnecessary medication.

My oldest daughter is a medical doctor - MD in family practice. She says that one of the biggest issues she runs into in her practice is that a lot of the antibiotics that formerly worked for various human illnesses no longer work as they used to. It's like taking your hammer and screw driver out of the toolbox. She's not an organic "fanatic" - just a young doctor commenting on what she sees in her day to day work.

She says even kids have built up a resistance to many antibiotics and there is a school of thought that this is occurring because of the low level of antibiotics routinely used in agriculture, not because they are needed to fight a disease but as more or less preventive medication. There are low levels of antibiotics in many of the commercial animal products you buy in a grocery store. A similar reasoning may apply to growth hormones.

I feel THIS is the type of thing we should be working on in raising "natural" beef. I don't think you need to worry about whether or not your cattle ate some free choice corn.

If an animal is sick you do whatever is necessary, including antibiotics if that is the best remedy, to make them healthy again. However, it may be that, like with our own bodies, if you follow good nutrition, get exercise, get immunized against some common diseases, drink lots of clean water and live in a clean environment then maybe there won't be the need for emergency antibiotics, etc. at least not so often. And definitely not the need to have them in an animals feed "just in case". jmho.

I want to congratulate you an the way you have stuck with this thread and shared your experience. It takes a tough hide some times but I would guess many others have learned from it also. Best of luck, nygrass (& a little bit of corn)!

 

[dun]

She says even kids have built up a resistance to many antibiotics and there is a school of thought that this is occurring because of the low level of antibiotics routinely used in agriculture, not because they are needed to fight a disease but as more or less preventive medication. There are low levels of antibiotics in many of the commercial animal products you buy in a grocery store. A similar reasoning may apply to growth hormones.

This has been debunked by everyone except the organic and veggie folks that won;t let the truth stand in the way of pushing their agenda.

 

[SRBeef]

She says even kids have built up a resistance to many antibiotics and there is a school of thought that this is occurring because of the low level of antibiotics routinely used in agriculture, not because they are needed to fight a disease but as more or less preventive medication. There are low levels of antibiotics in many of the commercial animal products you buy in a grocery store. A similar reasoning may apply to growth hormones.

This has been debunked by everyone except the organic and veggie folks that won;t let the truth stand in the way of pushing their agenda.

Dun,

I respect the advice you give on here.

I ask that you respect my relaying of my MD-daughter's comments to me. She is not an "organic veggie folk". She is an experienced doctor. And a darned good one may I add. I am an agricultural engineer by training and practice on my day job. Neither my daughter nor I have an "agenda" here or with regard to antibiotics.

I am not sure that this antibiotic resistance my daughter sees is due to antibiotics in food products. But then again I am not sure that it is not. Nor, as an engineer, do I see any way that anyone could conclusively prove either way without decades long controlled studies which would be largely unethical. I don't think it is possible to "debunk" nor prove the theory.

In my case, given the lack of proof either way, I choose to err on the side of caution. For myself and my family. Other folks may feel this way and may then be a market for "natural beef". If we don't fill this market need, other movements such as promoting vegetarianism, may.

It seems to me that we need to be respectful of both sides of this issue since there is so little chance of conclusively and scientifically proving either point of view.

I also realize that this type of thinking may not be popular on this particular website. However I think it is important to listen to alternative views in any undertaking. Or other views can be ignored...

 

[ny_grass]

Thanks to everyone who's taken time to help me out on this.

Here's what's new:
- went to the mill on friday and bought 400 lbs of what they call a heifer mix (16% protein). I think it's a pretty standard mix: corn, oats, distillers by products, etc... (non-medicated).
- we put the roof on the new digs for the cattle. Lots of fun in 12F weather (but it least it was sunny). I'll get some pictures of it up tomorrow. I have a west facing wall to put up, the electric fence around it (which might be hard with frozen ground), and I've got to build the hay and grain feeders. The whole concept behind this structure is another Salatin idea; a roof to keep it dry; hay nearby to drop right into the feeders and, most importantly, wood chips or saw dust on the ground to lock in the nitrogen; get the mix right and the mixture composts, helping to keep the cows dry and warm. The finished compost is supposed to be spread on the hayfield the following spring/summer. Problem, I've discovered, is that it least up here in upstate NY it appears to be impossible to get dump truck loads of saw dust; apparently it's all going to make pellets for stoves. Might have a mess like I presently do if I can't get enough bedding down. The structure came in at about $2500. We'll see whether it was worth it as time goes on.

Some questions:
- Anyone have an idea of the simplest grain feeder that I could use that would help to insure that all the cattle get a share. Just something that allows them all to feed at once? Put it off the ground 18-24" or just on the ground? Should there be dividers to discourage the more dominant from nudging their smaller peers? Or is that overkill?

- I just looked up how long I should separate the calves for weaning. Here (viewtopic.php?f=19&t=53037&p=606046&hilit=weaning#p606046), Dun and others say 6-8 weeks!! I had no idea; I was (seriously) thinking a week or so would do it! So that means I've got to come up with something different as my new "barn" isn't really big enough to split in two. I do have a proper barn but I've not wanted them in there (the concrete floor is pretty broken up and I envision it'd be tough to clean up, plus there really isn't much room).

 

[dun]

She says even kids have built up a resistance to many antibiotics and there is a school of thought that this is occurring because of the low level of antibiotics routinely used in agriculture, not because they are needed to fight a disease but as more or less preventive medication. There are low levels of antibiotics in many of the commercial animal products you buy in a grocery store. A similar reasoning may apply to growth hormones.

This has been debunked by everyone except the organic and veggie folks that won;t let the truth stand in the way of pushing their agenda.

Dun,

I respect the advice you give on here.

I ask that you respect my relaying of my MD-daughter's comments to me. She is not an "organic veggie folk". She is an experienced doctor. And a darned good one may I add. I am an agricultural engineer by training and practice on my day job. Neither my daughter nor I have an "agenda" here or with regard to antibiotics.

I am not sure that this antibiotic resistance my daughter sees is due to antibiotics in food products. But then again I am not sure that it is not. Nor, as an engineer, do I see any way that anyone could conclusively prove either way without decades long controlled studies which would be largely unethical. I don't think it is possible to "debunk" nor prove the theory.

In my case, given the lack of proof either way, I feel would choose to err on the side of caution. For myself and my family. jmho.

It seems to me that we need to be respectful of both sides of this issue since there is so little chance of conclusively and scientifically proving either point of view.

I wan;t insinuating that she was one of that group only that those are the groups that are constantly touting them as "facts". The groups I'm referring to are the ones like peta/hsus, the various organic groups, etc. They practice "if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth". Even intelligent people can begin to believe if they hear it often enough. I seem to recall that it was the CDC a few years ago that came out with a study indicating that livestock antibiotics wasn;t a major cause of human resistance to them, it was doctors ove rprescribing them or prescribing them for the wrong purpose.

 

[KMacGinley]

Especially since the livestock antibiotics commonly used were discarded from the human disease fighting regimen in the early 70s.

 

[SRBeef]

I seem to recall that it was the CDC a few years ago that came out with a study indicating that livestock antibiotics wasn;t a major cause of human resistance to them, it was doctors ove rprescribing them or prescribing them for the wrong purpose.

That may very well be true. But the key word here is "major". Maybe the safe thing to do is to err on the side of caution and also not "overprescribe" them to our cattle.

I like beef. I think many other folks like beef when they get to taste some good beef.

Cattle are amazing animals when you think that they can take grass and turn it into something very useful and nutritious. They can also leave the pasture better than they found it. My Herefords have really improved my farm. I also don't like to hear of folks down playing beef. Cattle are an important part of agriculture.

We do need to listen to other opinions however. And if folks are willing to pay for a high quality beef product that they know where it comes from, what it has been fed and which has not had antibiotics nor hormones then why not sell it to them without arguing points that can not be (in my mind) conclusively proved???

Thanks for your reply and sharing your experience here every day.