Lower Input Production Information

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How about you Steve? Do you use any of this thinking? What do you find helpful for your operation?
1) I learned to connect growing grass and grazing cattle from Andre Voisin's Grass Productivity classic. It a tough read from the days of cheap N. Today I would focus on Greg Judy if I was in the fescue belt, or on Dr. Allen if you really like polywire.

2) I struggled to manage seasonal stocking rates and droughts. A way to address both is to run multiple classes of livestock. Dr Gordon Hazard's stockering classic covers the entire process including paying for land.

3) Marketing livestock is a trendy topic with several people now offering classes based on Bud William's Sell - Buy Methods. I prefer Wally Olson's delivery.

4) Economic detail is sadly lacking in world where it is simpler and safer to stay at a high level with buzz words. An exception is Steve Kenyon's old columns in the Graze newsletter. Another exception is some of Jim Gerrish's early publications in Missouri, where he partnered with an ag economist. Noble Institute also does a nice job here.

5) Stockmanship is an old timey skill that hard to teach. It runs so contrary to many our current attitudes. Bud Williams is the benchmark. His daughter Tina puts on a class, but I have not attended it.
 
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It is hard to convince someone who is involved with production agriculture to get out of 'one' of their 175 hp air conditioned behemoth and let that $150,000. planter and related equipment set and go string a poly wire for some cattle. It might be even harder on their banker.. In all
probability the land consolidation will most likely continue unabated until the cycle collapses in on its self. A person is lucky if they even get
a chance to have a part in this business for which I am deeply indebted to a Higher Power
 
Stringing polywire does interfere with corns, beans, and Cancun. Might have to hire or contract cattle care.

"Lower input" ag makes many people think about N and fuel and chemicals. It's really about capitol and overhead. A good tractor and planter are expensive, but they scale just fine with the right acreage and crop insurance. A cow herd is also expensive, and often harder to scale because of the low gross margin.
 
"Lower input" ag makes many people think about N and fuel and chemicals. It's really about capitol and overhead. A good tractor and planter are expensive, but they scale just fine with the right acreage and crop insurance. A cow herd is also expensive, and often harder to scale because of the low gross margin.
I think it makes a lot of sense to new folks, especially those coming into the game with a clean slate.

I've listened to some Gordon Hazard wisdom and did enjoy it. I will check out the books you mentioned.

Haven't heard of Wally Olson before. Looking into that too. Appreciate the information.

Last years drought really got into my wallet. I've already said it recently, but will say it again... I have learned the lesson about feeding through a drought.
 
One of the items I struggle with is the approach to preferential grazing. With larger paddocks, cattle will come in, target certain grasses - typically OG, timothy - and ignore others and come back to previously grazed grass. Smaller more evenly shaped paddocks (I tried those skinny slices) appears to be the solution but that means more water points and more frequent moves. This also helps with manure distribution and metabolic rifts.

In the latest Stockman grass farmer there is an article that claims that soil biology mitigates fescue endophyte levels. I want to research that. I've been told that applying nitrogen boosts levels, so this is of interest.
 
It is hard to convince someone who is involved with production agriculture to get out of 'one' of their 175 hp air conditioned behemoth and let that $150,000. planter and related equipment set and go string a poly wire for some cattle. It might be even harder on their banker.. In all
probability the land consolidation will most likely continue unabated until the cycle collapses in on its self. A person is lucky if they even get
a chance to have a part in this business for which I am deeply indebted to a Higher Power
I'm right there with you, Brother. I feel very fortunate.

I, too, see the collapse as inevitable. I'm fine with leasing ground, though. Hopefully it'll be available.
 
One of the items I struggle with is the approach to preferential grazing. With larger paddocks, cattle will come in, target certain grasses - typically OG, timothy - and ignore others and come back to previously grazed grass. Smaller more evenly shaped paddocks (I tried those skinny slices) appears to be the solution but that means more water points and more frequent moves. This also helps with manure distribution and metabolic rifts.

In the latest Stockman grass farmer there is an article that claims that soil biology mitigates fescue endophyte levels. I want to research that. I've been told that applying nitrogen boosts levels, so this is of interest.
Diversity is the key to mitigating fescue toxicity I do believe. Which in turn is good for both soil and animal health.

I have limited water sites, only 2. I do a strip grazing thing. My fields average 12 acres in size. I start a strip, moving the back fence once or twice a day. Try to be onto a new strip by day 4 and let the previous rest. If you can get a 3 day rule going you should be able to avoid the overgrazing. There is always going to be something they gnaw to the ground.

It's all about the rest I think. Beat the living he'll out of it, but after a good rest it's good to go. I have halfway destroyed half our farm this winter with hay feeding. I need to take some before and after pics just to compare for myself.

Have you seen the Total Grazing Program promoted by Jaime Elesandro? It's a bit different, but similar. I think it's too much time for me though. The time thing is something I'm trying to balance. I definitely see benefit to moving 2+ times a day, but it's hard to have the time.

I need to work on water and fence to facilitate things better.
 
I generally don't use a "back fence" on my strips, other than when I fence them OUT of a strip once I've completed a pass across it... which typically is 3 days or less. In my system, they need to be able go back to the "starting end" of the strip to access the water there in the headland. However, they seldom graze at all on "yesterday's break" if you're moving them every day. They'll always prefer to be GRAZING on the fresh grass, because those ungrazed tips of the blades are the most succulent and nutritious... highest brix. If you leave them on it long enough for the grazed grass to begin to recover, that new regrowth shoots will be the most succulent and nutritious with the highest brix though. That's why in continuous grazing, they'll end up "selectively grazing", and you'll end up with areas that get mature, and areas that are nipped completely to the ground. And they'll avoid the "less succulent" plants... so you'll end up with "weeds". My cattle will eat thistles, burdoc, pigweed, giant ragweed... most anything, as long as it's "young".

So I will have TWO limit wires out ahead of them all the time... I'll have today's limit wire across the strip at the leading end of the strip ahead of them, and then I will also put TOMORROW'S limit polywire out beyond that one. When I pull the limit wire to let them into the next day's break, I will automatically move it out in front to be used as TOMORROW'S break limit wire. That way, when I go out, all I have to do is roll up 215' of poly to let them into today's break, and install 215' for tomorrow's break... there's always two wires out ahead of 'em if they should ever break through for some reason (don't think I've ever had that happen though honestly... when you're moving them all the time, they're pretty content to wait for you to show up, and never hungry).
 
I have been getting a chuckle reading this. There is nothing new under the sun. I am reminded of a story Steve Fransen PhD from Washington State University told me. Steve is a excellent grass expert, experimenter, and teacher. He had come up with a great idea. While contemplating how to set up an experiment to validate his idea he happened on to an old ag text book from 1910. There is black and white was his theory and how they had proven it back around the turn of the century.

I learned all of these practices being discussed 25 years ago. Adopted them to the environment I was working with at that time. Without a doubt they work. The question becomes not do they work but how does one go about adjusting them to the many different complex environments and situations around this big country.
 
On mine in winter, after I've grazed the stockpile off as much as I want to, I take out all the polywire (still have the single wire HT subdivision fences), and they can have the run of the whole place basically. They never go anywhere other than water, shelter from wind, and feed (unrolled bales) anyway, and I control their movement all winter just with where I feed 'em. If a perimeter fence will get buried, I just feed in that area before we get too much snow, and feed away from that area until the snow melts enough to expose the fence again. All told, I've "covered" about 220 acres of ground with hay residue/manure this winter. Neighbor just commented the other day on how he was impressed with how even the manure distribution is.
 
CV I'm struggling to understand your grazing program with two watering points. I'd like to see diagrams and pictures and yes what you consider beat up pasture. I like to see how different programs work for different environments and constraints.

Never heard of the Total Grazing Program. Worth looking into. Its amazing profound managing grazing is.

RDFF, I get your responsive approach to conditions throughout winter. Which brings up another question - any other grazers pull cattle off pastures in extreme wet weather?
 
RDFF> You should have a Fleet Farm in your area that you can access. Don't know what you use for fence material at the time.
If you can get there (FF) Get some 6 'x 9/16" fiber glass posts, make yourself a 1" pipe driver (or buy one) also a supply of 5/8 x5' posts
and whatever 1/2 " fibers you need. Some pigtail posts to use for bracing on the 9/16 are handy as well.
You may be way ahead of me on this but getting rid of steel step in or those PA plastic step ins that the plastic ears break off all the time
was one of the best things I ever did, grazing wise. You have to have TWO limit wires ahead or they won't know when or where to stop
and begin grazing. I like it when they know it's moving time and they all line up along the fence and wait for the wire to go by so they can
move ahead!. When I am strip grazing I use one side as a temporary lane with 2 or more spools so I can have an opening to whatever strip
I happen to be using. By doing that I can avoid having them on a pregrazed area. I like to use a 3 day system for a paddock with the
expectation the paddock size will change almost every time I use it. I expect to move them at least a 100 times through the summer.
I like a 36 to 40 day rest and would rather not use the same cycle. I usually try to have at least one area that remains ungrazed for the year.
The native prairie (of which I have very little) seems to do best if grazed in the 30 days following the solar equinox then left alone for the year.
I will use the steel spring clips on the 9/16 fibers or even the 5/8. Other than that I use the plastic screw ons. and hope the deer don't pop
too many off at a time. I like Powerflex fence out of Missouri for ideas on material for grazing. They advertise in Stockman Grass Farmer
which you may or may not receive at the time. Any of what I've said here may or may not apply in your situation. Do what works for you
LVR
 
RDFF> You should have a Fleet Farm in your area that you can access. Don't know what you use for fence material at the time.
If you can get there (FF) Get some 6 'x 9/16" fiber glass posts, make yourself a 1" pipe driver (or buy one) also a supply of 5/8 x5' posts
and whatever 1/2 " fibers you need. Some pigtail posts to use for bracing on the 9/16 are handy as well.
You may be way ahead of me on this but getting rid of steel step in or those PA plastic step ins that the plastic ears break off all the time
was one of the best things I ever did, grazing wise. You have to have TWO limit wires ahead or they won't know when or where to stop
and begin grazing. I like it when they know it's moving time and they all line up along the fence and wait for the wire to go by so they can
move ahead!. When I am strip grazing I use one side as a temporary lane with 2 or more spools so I can have an opening to whatever strip
I happen to be using. By doing that I can avoid having them on a pregrazed area. I like to use a 3 day system for a paddock with the
expectation the paddock size will change almost every time I use it. I expect to move them at least a 100 times through the summer.
I like a 36 to 40 day rest and would rather not use the same cycle. I usually try to have at least one area that remains ungrazed for the year.
The native prairie (of which I have very little) seems to do best if grazed in the 30 days following the solar equinox then left alone for the year.
I will use the steel spring clips on the 9/16 fibers or even the 5/8. Other than that I use the plastic screw ons. and hope the deer don't pop
too many off at a time. I like Powerflex fence out of Missouri for ideas on material for grazing. They advertise in Stockman Grass Farmer
which you may or may not receive at the time. Any of what I've said here may or may not apply in your situation. Do what works for you
LVR
Lee, I now use 1 1/4" fiberglass posts, 6' long, for ALL of my line posts on perimeter and semi-permanent HT single wire subdivision fence, and 3 1/2" x 4 1/2" x 8' fiberglass posts for my corner posts/H braces. I used to use the 5/8" fiberglass rods for "every other" line post on subdivision fence, trying to save cost, but I've found they're not strong enough to hang a poly reel on, so I've now gone to the 1 1/4's for everything. Drill a hole through and tie the HT wire on with a soft 14 ga. galvanized wire. I always hook my polywire end hook by a line post, and then aim for a line post across the strip to hang my poly reel on. Try to never put it in the same place on return grazes...

I like the good polywire from Powerflex or K-fence best. Get a fair amount of stuff from Powerflex honestly, and like working with them. For the polywire supports across the strip, I just use the smooth 3/8" fiberglass rods (usually get them from FF when they're on sale). One wrap around with the poly wire, with no spring clips or anything at all... is all you need (polywire never moves up or down on them... YOU DON'T NEED A HOOK OR CLIP TO HOLD IT IN PLACE... just one more thing to break, or to take away from ease of use in placing them into and retrieving from your "storage" on the 4 wheeler...) I have a quiver I can use if having to "hoof it" down a fenceline... I can put about 30 of them into a 2 1/2" pipe quiver (see it on the front rack below).. AND, they're lighter in weight than ANYTHING ELSE you might want to use. They store neatly just threaded through the rack on the 4 wheeler (see that in the pic below too... I have an older Honda Foreman with a steel rack... the rods are smooth and small, with no hooks/clips/step in/pig tail sticking out on them, so ALWAYS STAY TANGLE FREE and take up minimal space). I usually will have reels hang off the back and/or the front rack... anywhere from 4 to 7 of them hanging on it most of the summer, along with maybe 30 of the rods or so. Still leaves the space on top of the rack available for salt, other supplies, etc. Most of the time I'm just moving one 215' polywire... which will only require a couple of minutes and 3-4 of the 3/8" rods. Having one of the rods handy to lift a hot wire makes quick work of slipping the 4 wheeler under it (all reasons why I don't ever use a 2 wheeler for cattle work anymore).

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Very good thread. I don't believe "big grain" will crash, however, but will evolve. The use of cover crops and biostimulants will lessen the need for herbicides and commercial fertilizer. Throw in a cattle rotation in the winter/spring and you have a good start on lower inputs and soil health. See Gabe Brown here, he's the gold standard on low input grain farming.

This is the direction I'm heading with my small farm. I don't intend to completely eliminate commercial inputs but any reduction is a pay raise, and if I can grow a cash crop in the summer and graze through the winter I've essentially doubled my acres. My goal is to graze small pastures from April-September or October and then utilize covers and residue through the winter.

I don't rotationally graze. It is something I would like to do but everything is a work in progress here. I have learned, however, that having zero animal traffic from frost until greenup dramatically improves grass volume. As Greg Judy says, any rest is better than none, so I'll start by splitting my pastures in two and go from there. Off farm work and family limit some things on the farm is the reality. As the little kids get older more farm time turns into family time. My contracting work is flexible, but it does require time away.
 
@RDFF

I have to replace 100 percent of our fences over the next few years. The thick fiberglass rods have kept me curious. I'm glad to see you're liking them.

On using FG rods for your temp fencing, do you drive them with a hammer or just push em in with your hands? Carrying 30 pigtails is a pain for sure.
 
CV I'm struggling to understand your grazing program with two watering points. I'd like to see diagrams and pictures and yes what you consider beat up pasture. I like to see how different programs work for different environments and constraints.

Never heard of the Total Grazing Program. Worth looking into. Its amazing profound managing grazing is.

RDFF, I get your responsive approach to conditions throughout winter. Which brings up another question - any other grazers pull cattle off pastures in extreme wet weather?
I try my best to stay out of bottom ground when it's super wet. But sometimes it happens.

Last year, one spot was pretty wet each time I grazed it. It has a ridiculous amount of clover right now. I assume due to the level of "beat up" it stayed last year. It has been resting since October.

I will try to get some pictures this weekend and draw up a map for you. It's really a pain in the butt with 2 water troughs.
 
@RDFF

I have to replace 100 percent of our fences over the next few years. The thick fiberglass rods have kept me curious. I'm glad to see you're liking them.

On using FG rods for your temp fencing, do you drive them with a hammer or just push em in with your hands? Carrying 30 pigtails is a pain for sure.
It depends... typical answer, right? Well, if you've had enough moisture to keep the ground damp (which is most of the time with good soil health practices), you can just push them right in.

As the soil becomes more dry, penetration with anything will pretty much ALWAYS become more difficult... these variables are why I kind of laugh at using a soil "penetrometer" to determine HOW compacted the soil is, and compare it to "other soil", or soil at different times of the year. It's NOT an accurate test, depending on these variables of conditions at the time. Just wet that spot by doing a water infiltration test (which is less affected by how dry it's been)... and THEN do your penetrometer again after 20 or 30 minutes, and there will be a world of difference. And it's NOT because you've suddenly brought the soil biology back to life in that short amount of time and they did their thing... it's purely the affect that the water had on the soil itself.

I rarely DO drive them in though, but when I do, it's just with the plastic cap that's available wherever you buy them, and a regular 16 oz. claw hammer. Mostly I do this in winter if I'm using them... and typically I can drive them in enough to get them to stand... especially if there is enough snow to prevent frost from pentrating much. If your soil is biologically active, it doesn't freeze over nearly as much as "dead soil" does... you'll be surprised by this difference. That's also why it will warm up more quickly in the spring... which most guys don't believe... "If it's covered with residue, it takes alot longer to warm up... that's why I HAVE TO till"................. WRONG. Stop the tilling, work on building soil biological activity instead, and it WILL be warmer earlier in spring. KEEP THAT SOIL COVERED!
 
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@RDFF

I have to replace 100 percent of our fences over the next few years. The thick fiberglass rods have kept me curious. I'm glad to see you're liking them.

On using FG rods for your temp fencing, do you drive them with a hammer or just push em in with your hands? Carrying 30 pigtails is a pain for sure.
I'm sure that a 1" rod would be strong enough to support the weight of a poly reel too. The 5/8" rods are NOT though. I just prefer to have only ONE size of posts on hand, for "inventories sake". That's why they're all 6' too. I put in HT 3 wire perimeter, and one wire subdivision. They BOTH get 6' x 1 1/4" line posts, even though a shorter one would work fine for the single wire fences. I just hang the 1 wire in the "middle hole" (actually I drill the holes in place after installing them using a "story stick" hung on the top of the post, and a cordless drill, so I only drill ONE hole in the subdivision line posts, but you get the idea). You NEED to use a carbide-tipped concrete bit... any regular bit will get hot and become dull very quickly. The carbide bits seem to last forever though. I drill a 3/16" hole and use the "hammer drill" option... seems to speed the drilling up a bit with less pressure required... let the bit and the hammer drill do the work, NOT your arm.

And again, on the 3/8" rods for temp fences, wrap the polywire just once around and it'll stay, with the tension of the wire. NOTHING sticking out on that straight thin rod at all... no tangling, nothing to break, easy storage, works great for a quick sorting stick too. The red tube strapped onto my front rack on the 4 wheeler is my "quiver" that I carry over my shoulder if I have a long line to install... I use that very little though the way that I've got my farm subdivided. I can put in about 1/4 mile of fence with the rods I can carry in that quiver. I mostly only have to put up 215' of line though each time I move. Takes maybe 5 minutes tops. I just carry 3-4 of the 3/8" rods under one arm when I do this, string the wire across, then on my way back to the 4 wheeler I left on the other end I install the rods at "so many paces" apart.

Perhaps the BEST THING about using all fiberglass fence posts is there's NO INSULATORS TO BREAK, AND NO STEEL FENCE POSTS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT NEAR TO THE HOT WIRES TO GROUND THEM OUT!
 
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Have you seen the Total Grazing Program promoted by Jaime Elesandro? It's a bit different, but similar. I think it's too much time for me though. The time thing is something I'm trying to balance. I definitely see benefit to moving 2+ times a day, but it's hard to have the time.

I need to work on water and fence to facilitate things better.
Clinch, have you considered using Batt-Latches to cut down on the labor requirement?
 
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