Lower Input Production Information

[ClinchValley86]

Considering the prices of inputs now, I hope producers are exploring alternative routes when it comes to soil and animal health.

I suggest checking out videos/podcasts/literature of a few smart people, producers and scientists, in efforts to learn more about working with biology instead of against. I truly feel we have been blinded by Big Ag over the last 100 years, very very very much so in the last 50.

This list barely scratches the surface of smart folks bringing great information to light.

Producers:
Allen Savory (OG)
Dr. Allen Williams
Gabe Brown (Experimentor)
Greg Judy. (Most popular I'd say)
Will Harris (Best last name ☺)
Jim Gerrish (OG)
Joel Salatin (OG)
Mark shepherd (OG)

Scientists:
Dr. Elaine Ingham
Dr. Ray Archuletta (My most favorite)
Dr. Allen Williams (My 2nd favorite)
Dr. Christine Jones

YouTube Channels:
KYForages
Noble Research Institute
Grassfed Exchange


Podcasts:
Working Cows Podcast
Herd Quitter
Stockman Grass Farmer
Grazed in America
Grazing Grass

I wanted to be sure everyone knew there are options, and that most profit-robbing inputs are able to be managed around while improving soil/animals at the same time.

Share any information resources you have found helpful.

 

[Djm961]

Thanks for the list. I haven't heard or seen some of them so now I have something to check out over the next couple weeks.

Turned all my hay fields into pasture a couple years ago. No more inputs for me except vaccines and enough grain to make them easy to get into corral.

My biggest problem has been shade. The old hay fields have zero shade so it's been hard to graze them in July and august. Built some movable shade structures this winter so going to see how bad the wind tosses them around this summer.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Thanks for the list. I haven't heard or seen some of them so now I have something to check out over the next couple weeks.

Turned all my hay fields into pasture a couple years ago. No more inputs for me except vaccines and enough grain to make them easy to get into corral.

My biggest problem has been shade. The old hay fields have zero shade so it's been hard to graze them in July and august. Built some movable shade structures this winter so going to see how bad the wind tosses them around this summer.

I figured the list would help unregistered guests more than anyone. Glad some members find it useful.

Same thing here. Almost no shade. I have a few trees around the waterer I use as our hub. I've been culling animals that can't handle the management. Interesting how they're getting smaller.

Strongly considering a home-raised bull this fall. Been reading a lot on epigenetics this winter.

We also began grazing hayfields a or so years ago. They now look better than the neighboring hayfields where they spend big money. ☺ Really makes me smile.

I'd love some pictures of your shade structures.

 

[Dave]

Actually Jim Gerrish posts on here. At one point he was fairly regular. Now he is only here on rare occasions.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Actually Jim Gerrish posts on here. At one point he was fairly regular. Now he is only here on rare occasions.

I'm sure he is a busy man!

 

[Djm961]

Sent you a more detailed message but this is the base design.

Shade Structures

With hot and humid summer days approaching, it is important to ensure that your cattle have access to shade. Kentucky is known for its hot and humid summers, which puts your cattle at a risk for...

www.edenshalefarm.com

 

[RDFF]

Thanks for the list. I haven't heard or seen some of them so now I have something to check out over the next couple weeks.

Turned all my hay fields into pasture a couple years ago. No more inputs for me except vaccines and enough grain to make them easy to get into corral.

My biggest problem has been shade. The old hay fields have zero shade so it's been hard to graze them in July and august. Built some movable shade structures this winter so going to see how bad the wind tosses them around this summer.

Djm, where you at? Put your location in your information so we all know... helps with suggestions we might choose to give. CONTEXT...

I have some shade available when necessary... but I'm in SE MN... so if it' just a really bad day, I try to allow the cattle to find some woods... but most days, they don't need it. Best way to deal with it IMO is to use genetics that will be able to handle it... I'm not too crazy about the "portable shade systems".... you're always going to kill the pasture underneath 'em anytime you put them out. If they don't have shade, they "generally" won't bunch up near as much (until the flies are bothering them bad!). In the woods, they'll kill everything underneath too... but at least you can consider that a single, designated "sacrifice area" kind of. With the portable shades, EVERYTHING is gonna be a "sacrifice area". And then when the first big wind comes along, they can also become "scrap iron" pretty fast.

 

[Djm961]

I am located in Missouri. Not enough woods on the farm unless I only want to use about 25% of the available ground. My side by side can move them around since I rotational graze so the sacrifice area will change with each rotation and shouldn't be a long-term sacrifice area. Only concern right now is going to be what happens in bad wind and storms. I may have to add weight or anchor them somehow. Based on my research it sounds like the shade cloth zip ties will break before the structure blows over but we will see

 

[RDFF]

I am located in Missouri. Not enough woods on the farm unless I only want to use about 25% of the available ground. My side by side can move them around since I rotational graze so the sacrifice area will change with each rotation and shouldn't be a long-term sacrifice area. Only concern right now is going to be what happens in bad wind and storms. I may have to add weight or anchor them somehow. Based on my research it sounds like the shade cloth zip ties will break before the structure blows over but we will see

I run quite a few, and have VERY little woods... across about 350 acres, there might be 8-10 acres that's thinly wooded... and that's in three separate areas. But the way I've got my farm fenced/subdivided, I can get them to some woods anytime I might want to. I close the access to it if they don't need the shade, so it can have some "R&R time".

My point about the portable shade is, IF you put it out there, they WILL congregate underneath it, even if they really don't NEED it. And the grass underneath it will be stomped to nothing. ANYTHING you put out there seems to always become a congregating area... park an old running gear out there, and I guarantee they'll gather around it and the grass there will be stomped to death... with no logical reason for that congregating. It's like fish with cover I guess.

Good friend of mine tried some portables... they let him use it on demo... he didn't buy it, didn't want it at all after trying it. I'd see if you could do that, or try renting one maybe for a bit... good way to see if you're gonna still feel it's worth the investment.

 

[Otha]

I don't have a picture of it handy but we build a portable shade out of 2 7/8 inch oil field pipe. It's 30 foot long, 10 foot wide, and I think 8 foot tall. Used 7 or so joints of pipe so I'd guess it weighs over 1,000 pounds. But I can still pull it with my SxS. We also put 10 foot out riggers on each side so it's 30x30 total. First time using it last summer and we liked it. Daily moves with about 30 pair. They did stomp the grass pretty good like someone said but with moving it every day and the manure they left it was the best grass in the patch on the next rotation, it is pretty hard to hurt Bermuda grass though. I think we had about $1,000 in it. Probably need better shade cloth on it in a year or two. But In my mind it doesn't have to add much gain per year to pay for it's self over a few years. I've read articles on both sides of if shade is needed. But when it's 100 plus for weeks straight it seems necessary to me.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I run quite a few, and have VERY little woods... across about 350 acres, there might be 8-10 acres that's thinly wooded... and that's in three separate areas. But the way I've got my farm fenced/subdivided, I can get them to some woods anytime I might want to. I close the access to it if they don't need the shade, so it can have some "R&R time".

My point about the portable shade is, IF you put it out there, they WILL congregate underneath it, even if they really don't NEED it. And the grass underneath it will be stomped to nothing. ANYTHING you put out there seems to always become a congregating area... park an old running gear out there, and I guarantee they'll gather around it and the grass there will be stomped to death... with no logical reason for that congregating. It's like fish with cover I guess.

Good friend of mine tried some portables... they let him use it on demo... he didn't buy it, didn't want it at all after trying it. I'd see if you could do that, or try renting one maybe for a bit... good way to see if you're gonna still feel it's worth the investment.

One company wanted something like 20k dollars for a portable shade deal. I about shite. Said right then and there, sorry girls. I figure the ground is cool with good ground cover that they can lay down and cool somewhat from underneath.

Also been thinking about fencing off a section of woods. Shite part of that is our woods are on the very back of the farm and would only benefit when on 20 percent of the place.

I think culling as needed is the cheapest route. And raising your own replacements adapted to those conditions will get ya there with solid footing. Just takes time.

I don't have a picture of it handy but we build a portable shade out of 2 7/8 inch oil field pipe. It's 30 foot long, 10 foot wide, and I think 8 foot tall. Used 7 or so joints of pipe so I'd guess it weighs over 1,000 pounds. But I can still pull it with my SxS. We also put 10 foot out riggers on each side so it's 30x30 total. First time using it last summer and we liked it. Daily moves with about 30 pair. They did stomp the grass pretty good like someone said but with moving it every day and the manure they left it was the best grass in the patch on the next rotation, it is pretty hard to hurt Bermuda grass though. I think we had about $1,000 in it. Probably need better shade cloth on it in a year or two. But In my mind it doesn't have to add much gain per year to pay for it's self over a few years. I've read articles on both sides of if shade is needed. But when it's 100 plus for weeks straight it seems necessary to me.

Thanks

 

[dave_shelby]

I came to the same conclusion on genetics. I had changed environment - fenced off waterways, rotationally grazed w/o access to as much shade and pushing more fescue vice eating off all the OG - and some cows couldn't handle that. These two pairs demonstrate the point

 

[RDFF]

Maybe just plant a patch of fast growing trees strategically for shade if need be, if you don't have any you can already take advantage of. Some species (soft-wood species) can grow so fast that in just a few years time you can have significant shade from 'em.

I prefer to fence my land so that I have "headlands", along the ends of all the "strips" that run off of them. I'll put about an 80' wide "headland" on each end. Then, let's say that one of the strips might have a halfway decent woods someplace on it... I can then use polywire to block off the strips across the headland I DON'T want the animals in, and use it as a "laneway" to get them to the strip with the woods on it. THAT strip might be as much as a half mile or even more from where I'm intending to be grazing them for the day. They'll find their way to the woods for relief during the heat of the day, but then will come out from there onto where I want them to graze in the late afternoon and evening, and will stay there through the night and until late morning the next day.

I'll only give them access to the woods when "necessary"... if it isn't necessary, then they'll just be fenced out onto their grazing area.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Considering the prices of inputs now, I hope producers are exploring alternative routes when it comes to soil and animal health.

I suggest checking out videos/podcasts/literature of a few smart people, producers and scientists, in efforts to learn more about working with biology instead of against. I truly feel we have been blinded by Big Ag over the last 100 years, very very very much so in the last 50.

This list barely scratches the surface of smart folks bringing great information to light.

Producers:
Allen Savory (one of the OG's I suppose)
Dr. Allen Williams
Gabe Brown (Experimentor)
Greg Judy. (Most popular I'd say)
Will Harris (Best last name ☺)
Jim Gerrish (OG)
Joel Salatin
Mark shepherd

Scientists:
Dr. Elaine Ingham
Dr. Ray Archuletta (My most favorite)
Dr. Allen Williams (My 2nd favorite)
Dr. Christine Jones

YouTube Channels:
KYForages
Noble Research Institute
Grassfed Exchange


Podcasts:
Working Cows Podcast
Herd Quitter
Stockman Grass Farmer
Grazed in America
Grazing Grass

I wanted to be sure everyone knew there are options, and that most profit-robbing inputs are able to be managed around while improving soil/animals at the same time.

Share any information resources you have found helpful.

What do you feel are the most impactful two or three things you learned from this list?

 

[RDFF]

1. Employ as many of the 6 basic and universal soil health principles as possible
2. Nothing will move the "soil health needle" faster than seeding down the land to perennials, and maintaining livestock on that land as much as possible (meaning the land isn't taken out of "adaptively managed rotationally grazed livestock production" for row cropping purposes... therefore, it WILL be primarily KEPT in perennial forage production for grazing animals. However, under this management, this may meant that the land may be "resting" at times for as much as a year, depending on "context", without the managed grazing animals being on it at all). This then means that ALL of the soil health principles are being employed 100% of the time on that land, while it is in adaptively managed grazing animal production.

 

[ClinchValley86]

@Stocker Steve

****Apply the 4 to 6 basic soil health principles all year. Most importantly, keep the soil covered and always be ready to adapt. (I am overstocked and have failed this winter at keeping soil covered)

***Manage for what you do want, not the opposite. This mindset has helped a lot.

**Let ground rest. Move to new ground before regrowth occurs that 3rd day. Sooner the better. (Going to be focusing on gain this year with weaned and long yearlings. Gotta learn how to graze for gain. Suspect I'll allow more selective grazing and have to mow a bit. Possibly some mixed cover crop grazing for gain/finishing.)

*There is a natural nutrient cycle. With modern ag and continuous grazing we have disturbed the he'll out of it. All the nutrients you need are in the soil already, it's just a matter of getting that biology working again. We all have an underground herd to keep healthy too. Fungal networks are interesting too.

Soil testing - Learning of the different soil tests was interesting. (I'd like to do a Haney test and a standard type test to have a baseline to compare to later down the road.)

Allen Williams' story is definitely worth listening to. Same with Ray Archuletta. Both were Ag Scientists I believe. Saw what was going on behind the scenes and in Universities, saw it was improving nothing and degrading things further. They woke up. Very informative.

How about you Steve? Do you use any of this thinking? What do you find helpful for your operation?

 

[ClinchValley86]

Maybe just plant a patch of fast growing trees strategically for shade if need be, if you don't have any you can already take advantage of. Some species (soft-wood species) can grow so fast that in just a few years time you can have significant shade from 'em.

I prefer to fence my land so that I have "headlands", along the ends of all the "strips" that run off of them. I'll put about an 80' wide "headland" on each end. Then, let's say that one of the strips might have a halfway decent woods someplace on it... I can then use polywire to block off the strips across the headland I DON'T want the animals in, and use it as a "laneway" to get them to the strip with the woods on it. THAT strip might be as much as a half mile or even more from where I'm intending to be grazing them for the day. They'll find their way to the woods for relief during the heat of the day, but then will come out from there onto where I want them to graze in the late afternoon and evening, and will stay there through the night and until late morning the next day.

I'll only give them access to the woods when "necessary"... if it isn't necessary, then they'll just be fenced out onto their grazing area.

I've got a gallon bag of mimosa tree seed I'm getting out soon. And plan to take many weeping willow cuttings to root this year. Those two seem to grow fast here.

I like your headland tree planting idea.

Do you plant trees?

 

[RDFF]

I've got a gallon bag of mimosa tree seed I'm getting out soon. And plan to take many weeping willow cuttings to root this year. Those two seem to grow fast here.

I like your headland tree planting idea.

Do you plant trees?

So far no, I haven't been planting trees, because I've been getting by (for essential shade when it's just too hot) to serve the purpose for the time being. But I sometimes have been considering putting a wind break row in along my north property line... or so... to have more shelter for the cattle in the wintertime. Most of my farm is tiled... so there's tile lines there, and my waterline runs parallel to that north property line too, and it's where I'm installing my watering stations (using tire tanks in the middle of the "headland", preferably centered on every other subdivision fence so generally they would only use each station while on one of two strips, ...but it's best to locate them on the top of a knob for drainage away from the station (you for sure don't want to place them in or close to the "low spots" or in the valleys), so INLINE WITH THE SUBDIVISION FENCE isn't ALWAYS going to be the best placement). Most of my farm is pretty "open"... so when we get a bad blizzard with the wrong winds, it's pretty hard on 'em. They'll typically hang around the building site grove where they can get out of the wind when it's like that. I leave the subdivision fence back about 80' from the boundary fence on both ends of the strips, and then just block off wherever I need to with polywire. I put them on a strip, and then all I have to do is move one polywire 215' long (across the strip), to limit them to whatever amount they should have for the day... daily, or sometimes twice daily moves. I can run ANY NUMBER of animals in a group this way... nothing is a "fixed size" move, ever. If I need to put them on two strips to have enough, I can do that. If they only need a 215' x 50' area, I can do that. I might have them on 200' of one strip and 200' of the next at times. Very "flexible".

You can see there's a "woods" in the middle of the farm (kind of a dark trapezoid there in the center...) and then there's an odd shaped pasture past that last "watering station", in the upper right corner (NE corner of the farm). I've got another farm 1/4 mile further east, which also has access to some woods when needed. And then I've got another farm a mile further east from this one too. Obviously, this was all "corn/bean" land... which I'm completely surrounded by. I'm the odd man out that everybody talks about! Paved county highway runs right past our yard and through my farm there on the left... 1/2 mile to the north is a major state highway.

 

[ClinchValley86]

So far no, I haven't been planting trees, because I've been getting by (for essential shade when it's just too hot) to serve the purpose for the time being. But I sometimes have been considering putting a wind break row in along my north property line... or so... to have more shelter for the cattle in the wintertime. Most of my farm is tiled... so there's tile lines there, and my waterline runs parallel to that north property line too, and it's where I'm installing my watering stations (using tire tanks in the middle of the "headland", preferably centered on every other subdivision fence so generally they would only use each station while on one of two strips, ...but it's best to locate them on the top of a knob for drainage away from the station (you for sure don't want to place them in or close to the "low spots" or in the valleys), so INLINE WITH THE SUBDIVISION FENCE isn't ALWAYS going to be the best placement). Most of my farm is pretty "open"... so when we get a bad blizzard with the wrong winds, it's pretty hard on 'em. They'll typically hang around the building site grove where they can get out of the wind when it's like that. I leave the subdivision fence back about 80' from the boundary fence on both ends of the strips, and then just block off wherever I need to with polywire. I put them on a strip, and then all I have to do is move one polywire 215' long (across the strip), to limit them to whatever amount they should have for the day... daily, or sometimes twice daily moves. I can run ANY NUMBER of animals in a group this way... nothing is a "fixed size" move, ever. If I need to put them on two strips to have enough, I can do that. If they only need a 215' x 50' area, I can do that. I might have them on 200' of one strip and 200' of the next at times. Very "flexible".

You can see there's a "woods" in the middle of the farm (kind of a dark trapezoid there in the center...) and then there's an odd shaped pasture past that last "watering station", in the upper right corner (NE corner of the farm). I've got another farm 1/4 mile further east, which also has access to some woods when needed. And then I've got another farm a mile further east from this one too. Obviously, this was all "corn/bean" land... which I'm completely surrounded by. I'm the odd man out that everybody talks about! Paved county highway runs right past our yard and through my farm there on the left... 1/2 mile to the north is a major state highway.

View attachment 27946

Its a good thing to be talked about in that regard. Hopefully they'll see the success and try things themselves.

You have less shade than I. Props to you.

 

[RDFF]

I'm in MN remember... but we can get some pretty good heat too, with very high humidity.