Longhorn-Angus cross

[grubbie]

We use longhorn bulls for our heifers for calving ease. (Many are pure black, but not full angus.) We get a lot of the "lineback" calves. So far, we really haven't seen a difference in sale prices at the barn. In fact, last year some of the longhorn crosses were heavier than the baldy calves. They have treated us very well with the exception that they run like a friggin White-tail deer. Last year they all came out polled so we kept one heifer just for the heck of it. As a yearling you can see she is starting to get a little thinner than the others, but still as tall. Almost like a dairy calf. We'll see how she does.

 

[T-Bro]

That's interesting Grubbie.
I thought about crossing LH cows w/ a Brangus bull and retaining the heifers for momma cows. Then a terminal bull such as Charolais.
I'm sure someone has tried it, but I've never seen it myself.
For east Texas, I think this cross may make a good momma.

 

[ANAZAZI]

there are solid colour longhorns if you like to mix angus and lh. One could mix lh with piedmontese and get great calves. specially at weaning.

 

[irked]

i really hate to see cattlemen talking about cheating the order buyer. i know what you mean though and actually what you are talking about is deceiving the order buyer, which amounts to the same thing. i agree that it works though and by not giving these cattle time to express their genetics you have cashed in on something that you shouldn't have been able to cash in on. just because you mask his spots doesn't change him and buyers will end up putting those cattle on an order where he doesn't belong just because the calf looked like he would work in the split second that the buyer had to see him.

selling people something that they mistake for something else is cheating. it isn't only cheating the order buyer either. you have taken money out of the industry from one or more of the downstream players. the order buyer isn't the one that loses money on these cattle that don't perform with the rest of the load. the feeder or grazier lose that money. the order buyer gets his commission regardless. taking money out of the pockets of the feeder and grazier so that you can profit from selling inferior animals is wrong. i don't care how you try to justify it to yourself. these animals eventually express their genetics and the guy left holding them when they express those genetics loses money on them. they become outliers that take money out of a feeder's pocket. that ultimately gives him less money to spend on the next load of cattle. who have you cheated then? i'll answer that question for you. you have cheated the rest of us who try to do the right thing. and that irks me.

 

[Ralphy6177]

here's a Longhorn X Hereford. Her dam was actually a black baldy and the bull was a registered Longhorn.

 

[Ralphy6177]

Here's a Longhorn X Hereford cross. Registered Longhorn bull and Hereford cow.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Herfs and Shorthorns were the original crosses to put more beef on the Longhorn in the late 1800's through the first however many years of the 1900's. A few years ago, I looked at some LH/Polled Hereford cross calves. They were out of a herd of LH cows some fellows were running back in the rough country behind Flying G. They were leasing the land from Flying G, and using a young FG Polled Hereford bull. Some of the calves had the coloring of a straight Herf. Most of them lacked the bone and muscle of the herd their sire was from. The cows probably didn't average over 800-900#. The owners claimed to be getting over a dollar per pound at weaning.

 

[Busterz]

i really hate to see cattlemen talking about cheating the order buyer. i know what you mean though and actually what you are talking about is deceiving the order buyer, which amounts to the same thing. i agree that it works though and by not giving these cattle time to express their genetics you have cashed in on something that you shouldn't have been able to cash in on. just because you mask his spots doesn't change him and buyers will end up putting those cattle on an order where he doesn't belong just because the calf looked like he would work in the split second that the buyer had to see him.

selling people something that they mistake for something else is cheating. it isn't only cheating the order buyer either. you have taken money out of the industry from one or more of the downstream players. the order buyer isn't the one that loses money on these cattle that don't perform with the rest of the load. the feeder or grazier lose that money. the order buyer gets his commission regardless. taking money out of the pockets of the feeder and grazier so that you can profit from selling inferior animals is wrong. i don't care how you try to justify it to yourself. these animals eventually express their genetics and the guy left holding them when they express those genetics loses money on them. they become outliers that take money out of a feeder's pocket. that ultimately gives him less money to spend on the next load of cattle. who have you cheated then? i'll answer that question for you. you have cheated the rest of us who try to do the right thing. and that irks me.

You've thrown out the words "cheating" and "deceiving", so could you explain why this is any different than any other cattle breeder using black bulls to get a black hided animal to sell. How is it any different than entire breeds developing a black hided version to take advantage of a market that favors that color?

Nobody said they were hiding what these animals are/were. They run through the ring just like everything else, they are what they are. This cross takes the advantages of the longhorn cow, low cost, longevity, mothering ability and foraging ability and tries to make the calves as "beefy" and marketable as possible.

If anything this is the system that has been created by lazy order buyers, rather than knowing their cattle they have developed a habit of judging quality based on hide color which is probably the worst indicator of quality I could think of.

 

[BC]

You've thrown out the words "cheating" and "deceiving", so could you explain why this is any different than any other cattle breeder using black bulls to get a black hided animal to sell. How is it any different than entire breeds developing a black hided version to take advantage of a market that favors that color?

Nobody said they were hiding what these animals are/were. They run through the ring just like everything else, they are what they are. This cross takes the advantages of the longhorn cow, low cost, longevity, mothering ability and foraging ability and tries to make the calves as "beefy" and marketable as possible.

If anything this is the system that has been created by lazy order buyers, rather than knowing their cattle they have developed a habit of judging quality based on hide color which is probably the worst indicator of quality I could think of.

Your right about the black hide issue. The reason feed lots don't like Longhorns or Longhorn crosses is that they grow slower and there feed conversion is too high making the cost of gain to high.

I don't know where you go to buy and sale cattle, but the barns I go to average selling 250 head to 300 head an hour (that is a calf every 12 to 14.4 seconds). In that time frame, the buyer must look to see if it is a steer, bull (we have way too many who do not castrate) or heifer; estimate its weight; determine its quality and listen and bid to the auctioneer.

 

[1982vett]

Good order buyer has to have a good eye don't he/she? Breeding a longhorn to a good bull, is that not improving on the genetics of what you have and is that not the goal of the producer?

I think the longhorn owner has them because they like them. Good mothers, have a live calf like clockwork with few problem for years on end. Rugged cattle that fit in their place. I am sure breeding them to angus, charolais, or one of the other breeds will improve the offspring. May not be ideal for the order buyer but that is their job to see and know the difference also. If you use an order buyer and keep getting stock you don't like, I think you need to have a discussion with the buyer and fix the problem appropriatly. Just my opinion not that it means much.

 

[BC]

Good order buyer has to have a good eye don't he/she? Breeding a longhorn to a good bull, is that not improving on the genetics of what you have and is that not the goal of the producer?

I think the longhorn owner has them because they like them. Good mothers, have a live calf like clockwork with few problem for years on end. Rugged cattle that fit in their place. I am sure breeding them to angus, charolais, or one of the other breeds will improve the offspring. May not be ideal for the order buyer but that is their job to see and know the difference also. If you use an order buyer and keep getting stock you don't like, I think you need to have a discussion with the buyer and fix the problem appropriatly. Just my opinion not that it means much.

You are right about making the calves better, but they still have some of the undesirable traits of slow growth, poor feed conversersion and lack of muscling. That is the reason most order buyers will pass on the spotted or line back calves. They have had the "discussion" with their customers.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Has anyone done a longhorn angus cross (or longhorn and any other "beef" cross)? I've been contemplating it for a while.

Just wondering if anyone has any experiences they would share or pictures of what the calves look like?

do own some longhorns your trying too clean up?

 

[Frankie]

I don't think anyone is trying to fool or cheat the order buyer by using Longhorn cows. There's a market for everything that runs through the ring. The buyer will pay whatever he thinks they're worth. If he thinks it will cost more to finish them, he'll pay less than for an animal that he thinks is more efficient in the feedlot. If you're raising a breed that might be discounted because it's spotted or line backed, IMO, you should look into a retained owership program or direct marketing.

 

[Third Row]

The difference between Longhorn crosses and black hided cattle is buyers haven't stopped buying black hided cattle due to extremely poor growth from European crossed cattle.

Nobody is intentionally trying to deceive the buyers (well, except for the people actively talking about which bulls to use to make sure their calves don't show the Longhorn at weaning) they're just selling their cattle.

 

[irked]

busterz: "You've thrown out the words "cheating" and "deceiving", so could you explain why this is any different than any other cattle breeder using black bulls to get a black hided animal to sell. How is it any different than entire breeds developing a black hided version to take advantage of a market that favors that color?"


i'm not the one who threw out the word cheat. i only took issue with the ongoing discussion about cheating the order buyer. get your facts straight please. regarding your attempt to legitimize your poor breeding decision by saying that other breeders do something similar, i would contend that the big difference between what they do and what you are wanting to do are things called muscle and growth. muscle is the edible tissue that we sell and the rapid, efficient growth of that muscle is key to other sectors of the cattle industry being profitable. in the case of the cross you are contemplating, you are taking muscle and growth out of the industry.



busterz: "Nobody said they were hiding what these animals are/were. They run through the ring just like everything else, they are what they are. This cross takes the advantages of the longhorn cow, low cost, longevity, mothering ability and foraging ability and tries to make the calves as "beefy" and marketable as possible.

If anything this is the system that has been created by lazy order buyers, rather than knowing their cattle they have developed a habit of judging quality based on hide color which is probably the worst indicator of quality I could think of."



the longhorn has been bred up since the 1800's. i doubt if there's anything you can do to improve on those upgrades. if you are really so proud of your accomplishment with the poor breeding decision you are contemplating i have a project for you. try out the cross that you salivate over. when your calves reach their whopping 550 pound yearling weight take the mongrels and mutts to the auction barn. when the first one comes in, bolt upright out of your seat and stop the auction. announce to the auctioneer and all of the "lazy order buyers" that these are your cattle. tell them their lineage and how proud you are to have bred them up. let the "lazy order buyers" know what they are buying. after all you are so much smarter than they are i'm sure they would welcome your help. this will allow you to retain your integrity as an animal breeder by being sure that the "lazy order buyers" have not been misled because you have painted the spots and stripes solid black. please report back to us with the results.

mongrels & mutts beget mongrels & mutts.

regards

 

[irked]

frankie: "The buyer will pay whatever he thinks they're worth."

that's exactly my point frankie. i just get tired of always hearing people bashing auctions and bashing order buyers. i know that you're not doing it but some people seem to blame the order buyer for their own poor management or poor breeding decisions and that irks me. i don't care what kind of cattle people choose to raise as long as it doesn't hurt others. but people who raise junk should have to keep it and eat it or do like you suggest and retain ownership. when buyers misjudge (if you prefer instead of saying that they are cheated) these animals because they are sold before they demonstrate their genetic potential, or lack thereof, it reduces the amount of money that they have to spend on similar appearing cattle the next time. if it's really true (and it oftentimes is) that the longhorn in such a cross doesn't express itself until the calf is 350# plus, that reduces the price that buyers will pay for the straightbred angus or the black limis of the same size. in the auctions where calves are sold one at a time without benefit of knowing the consignor or their program, this results in some breeders who try to do right getting less for their calves. that irks me.

 

[KenB]

frankie: "The buyer will pay whatever he thinks they're worth."

that's exactly my point frankie. i just get tired of always hearing people bashing auctions and bashing order buyers. i know that you're not doing it but some people seem to blame the order buyer for their own poor management or poor breeding decisions and that irks me. i don't care what kind of cattle people choose to raise as long as it doesn't hurt others. but people who raise junk should have to keep it and eat it or do like you suggest and retain ownership. when buyers misjudge (if you prefer instead of saying that they are cheated) these animals because they are sold before they demonstrate their genetic potential, or lack thereof, it reduces the amount of money that they have to spend on similar appearing cattle the next time. if it's really true (and it oftentimes is) that the longhorn in such a cross doesn't express itself until the calf is 350# plus, that reduces the price that buyers will pay for the straightbred angus or the black limis of the same size. in the auctions where calves are sold one at a time without benefit of knowing the consignor or their program, this results in some breeders who try to do right getting less for their calves. that irks me.

You spend alot of your time being irked :!:

 

[somn]

Charolais will come closer to covering up the spots and give a calf with a little more muscle to cheat the order buyer.

You didn't just cheat the order buyer you also cheated the very person who cow calf men depend upon most the feedlot owner.

CHEAT why anyone in the cattle industry would want to do that to another member of the cattle industry is beyond me. If you can't raise good cattle and sell them with honesty why raise any at all. Oh yeah so you can't cheat someone instead. Eaiser to get ahead being crooked than honest.

 

[somn]

You've thrown out the words "cheating" and "deceiving", so could you explain why this is any different than any other cattle breeder using black bulls to get a black hided animal to sell. How is it any different than entire breeds developing a black hided version to take advantage of a market that favors that color?

You said it all with the last half of your last sentence a market that favors color. Throwing a black hide on some animals is deceiving however the feedlot man may be able to collect a premium on the black hide at slaughter. Breeding anything to a longhorn in order to cheat the buyer will never provide the feedlot owner a premium he will always see a deduction. There in lies the difference. One cattle man who cheats the buyer and the buyer will never get ahead. The other cheats the buyer with color and by doing so may give the buyer a chance to collect a premium on the hide color. If the buyer doesn't collect a premium based on hide color atleast he did not lose money like he did when he was cheated by the longhorn raiser.

 

[Busterz]

Has anyone done a longhorn angus cross (or longhorn and any other "beef" cross)? I've been contemplating it for a while.

Just wondering if anyone has any experiences they would share or pictures of what the calves look like?

do own some longhorns your trying too clean up?

No. I brought up the subject because I think they would fit my environment pretty well, there is a low cost of entry and they have low maintenance costs. And if you could put a good beef bull on them and increase the value of the calves over what normal longhorn calves are worth you could find a profitable niche.

I didn't realize that meant you would be cheating every cattleman, order buyer and feedlot owner in the country. :shock:

Maybe some people have done this to "fool" order buyers (but really they see more cattle than anybody so I don't see how you'd expect to fool them very often) but I look at it as a low cost investment with the ability to cheaply add some value. Like I said before, the cattle are are what they are so they should bring what they bring, if thats a discount from the regular market fine, I think it would still be more than a straight longhorn calf, which should translate into a profit.