Lime

[wbvs58]

I have a couple of paddocks that just aren't performing so I have got a couple loads of lime in. This lot is 35 tonne and I put out 29 tonne several weeks ago.
The pH is around 5-5.5 but the paddocks look very acidic with a lot of pin rush growing. I am aiming for 2 ton/acre but I get a bit heavy handed on the worst areas.
This is my setup for spreading it. It is supposed to be a 2 tonne spreader but from the number of loads it takes to get rid of it I suspect I am putting about 3 tonne in it with those hungry boards on the sides and she seems to handle it OK. The belt is hydraulic drive from the tractor auxillary and the spinner is driven from the PTO. Only one spinner but that is good for my place as lots of ins and outs to get around with a lot of trees and rocks and the lime can't be thrown very far no matter what you use. The excavator is handy to load it saves unhitching to use the FEL.



This is what the coverage looks like at the lowest rate.

Ken

 

[inyati13]

I had 20 ton put down the easy way. I put this on top the ridge about 10 days ago. He did the whole job including cost of lime, hauling and spreading for $350.59.

 

[dun]

All lime is not created equal. Based on the variability of the NEM, 2 tons can be a lot or not very much. There is some type of lime that is made by a burning process, don;t recall what it is, but the NEM is almost double what the straight quarried stuff is.

 

[wbvs58]

Ron the lime cost me $65 + 10% GST/tonne. It is unreal our cost of inputs compared to yours.
Ken
I hope the wind wasn't blowing when you put yours out Ron.

 

[dryfork2]

Rule of thumb try to keep ton per year per acre for hay ground. Quarry lime. want to try doing pasture for first time hopefully in about a week. 2 years ago 12.50 ton spread put on 80 ton. creek bottoms with gravel base test pretty good with little added lime ridge ground (clay loam) needs the ton a year

 

[NWMoAngus]

ENM, not NEM. Effective Neutralizing Material.

 

[dun]

ENM, not NEM. Effective Neutralizing Material.

Dam fingers, just washed my hands and can;t do a thing with them!

 

[Nesikep]

Would lime be of any benefit on places that are in the 7-7.5 pH range?

 

[inyati13]

dun: lime recommendations are provided on the soil report based on the RNV (Relative Neutralizing Value). The test result is provided on the soil report assuming a 100% effective lime. That is converted to tons per acre based on the source of lime in our area. Bourbon Limestone Paris is 60% RNV. Hanson Fleming is 56% RNV. Mt Sterling is 50% RNV. Thus the tons per acre is dependant on the source of the lime. For example, if the test calls for one ton per acre of 100% effective lime and you use crushed stone from Mt Sterling, the requirement would be 2 tons per acre.

Ken: There was a light breeze. The line is graduated from dust to particles the size of large grain of pepper. I figure 20 % is air borne. When there is no breeze, it may wander off but probably settles mostly on the farm. May lose 5 % to off farm settle.

Nesikep: Yes. Lime is crushed limestone. That is not a pure substance. It contains numerous trace elements just like the mineral you put out for your cattle. Thus, it may be needed as a source of calcium to plants and other trace minerals.

 

[greybeard]

I find it interesting that so many states have so many different standards for liming products.
Most lime(stone) products around here also have a ? % of magnesium in them, because they are a dolomite product. Yes, Innyati is correct--it all depends on the lime type and where it came from and it real values against set standards. And different states have different standards.**
Size matters as well--how much any given volume passes thru different screen or sieve mesh sizes.
I have a retail sack of it here to put in my vegetable garden and it has the different ratings that states use. (These ratings or info is for this particular product and what it is advertised to provide according to different states' standards)
This particular product came from Kansas.

COLORADO-ECCE=76%
FLORIDA-This product requires 2400 lbs to be equal to one tone of standard liming material. One standard of lime is 90% Calcium Carbonate.
IOWA-IOWA Secretary of Agriculture certified 1,517 ECCE per ton.
KANSAS-ECC=79%
MINNESOTA-ENP=1,524 lbs/ton.
MISSISSIPPI-Grade B Lime.
MISSOURI-635lbs of ENM per ton. (Effective Neutralizing Material)
NEBRASKA-ECCE=79%--1,718 lbs ECCE per ton.
NORTH CAROLINA-2,250lbs to equal one standard ton of agricultural liming material.
OHIO-ENP=1,524lbs/ton
OKLAHOMA-ECCE=79%
PENNSYLVANIA-ENV=77.7%
TENN-RNV=79.9% (Relative Neutralizing Value)
WISCONSIN-ECCE=79.5% Neutralizing Zone 70-79.

**
Just as an example, here's the explanation of Mississippi's grading and "purity". You can see where the "grade B" comes from.
http://msucares.com/crops/soils/acidity.html

Table 1. Standards for Mississippi graded agricultural liming materials (percentages).

........................................Grade A............Grade B
Calcium Carbonate Equivalent over 90.............over 80
passing 10 mesh screen.................90...................80
passing 60 mesh screen...............over 50.........over 30
Grade A lime meets the minimum standards in place before the regulation change. Grade B allows slightly coarser and less pure material to be registered with the Mississippi Department of Agriculture and Commerce.

The properties of these materials will be reflected in their agronomic utility. At the minimum values for each grade, the calculated RNV or ECCE for Mississippi Grade A lime is 63 percent, and for Grade B lime is 44 percent. Obviously, at these minimum levels, more Grade B product is required to neutralize acidity.

Research many years ago found the dissolution of large limestone particles is difficult to predict. Some large particle sizes require more than 20 years to dissolve. It is not good management to apply any material with the hope it will react some unknown day in the future.

The RNV concept emphasizes lime quality factors: CCE and fineness. Ease of transport, storage, or spreading does not indicate quality of agricultural limestone. Producers should obtain and use all legally required and available information about various liming materials in making lime purchase decisions.

 

[hurleyjd]

http://www.marketfarm.com/cfms/gandy_model_10t.cfm

I think that the 12 gandy would be a great addition. If you had a fertilizer tender would make it even better. More work but a very even distribution across the pasture or meadow.

 

[greybeard]

Ken: There was a light breeze. The line is graduated from dust to particles the size of large grain of pepper. I figure 20 % is air borne. When there is no breeze, it may wander off but probably settles mostly on the farm. May lose 5 % to off farm settle.

Nesikep: Yes. Lime is crushed limestone. That is not a pure substance. It contains numerous trace elements just like the mineral you put out for your cattle. Thus, it may be needed as a source of calcium to plants and other trace minerals.

If I can add to that as an example:

The product I mentioned above has the sizing process used on the label, and this product is a lot fner than the lime I had spread on my pastures earlier in the year--it's a pellet about 1/2-1/3 the size of an air rifle bb. (Not sure why they didn't start with the last size that 100% passed thru--would have saved some printing) Mesh is the # of openings in 1"
100% passed an 8 mesh sieve.
100% passed a 10 mesh sieve.
100% passed a 20 mesh sieve.
100% passed a 40 mesh sieve.
100% passed a 50 mesh sieve.
98% passed 60 mesh sieve.
90% passed a 100 mesh sieve.
70% passed a 200 mesh sieve. (200 mesh =0.0029" or 74 microns--0.074 mm

Other elements in this product:
Guaranteed dry wt analysis (elemental)
Calcium (Ca) 17.5%
Magnesium (Mg) 10.1%
Calcium Carbonate Eq. 80.0%
Water Soluble Binder 2.0%
Moisture (Maximum) 4.0%
Calcium Oxide (CaO) 24.0%
Magnesium Oxide (MgO) 17.0%
Total Oxides 41.0%
Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) 44.0%
Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3) 36.0%
Total Carbonates 80.0%

 

[dun]

dun: lime recommendations are provided on the soil report based on the RNV (Relative Neutralizing Value). The test result is provided on the soil report assuming a 100% effective lime. That is converted to tons per acre based on the source of lime in our area. Bourbon Limestone Paris is 60% RNV. Hanson Fleming is 56% RNV. Mt Sterling is 50% RNV. Thus the tons per acre is dependant on the source of the lime. For example, if the test calls for one ton per acre of 100% effective lime and you use crushed stone from Mt Sterling, the requirement would be 2 tons per acre.

From the general way he was speaking of it I wondered if he had done a soil test. That was the point I was talking around. That and knowing the neutralization value for the lime he was applying

 

[wbvs58]

Dun, I have had a couple of soil tests done and the pH has varied from 5-5.5. I can't lay my hands on them at the moment. These tests were done on my better paddocks and things do vary a lot around here the soil is very sandy and acidic all throughout this district. Soil tests cost me $120 for each test so I don't go wild with them. Our soils are very deficient in phosphorous and annual topdressing with Super Phosphate is required to get anything out of them and from local experience lime is required every few years. I don't know what the neutralizing value of our lime is it comes from a local quarry. Information from our government extension office recommends using this lime at the rate of 5 tonne/ hectare (2tonne/acre). We are not dealing with straight open fields, the place is full of rock outcrops and trees, you have to use your observations and place the stuff where you think it is going to be of the most benefit. Some of my bad sour areas I would have spread it at up to 10 tonne/Ha. This is the beauty of spreading it myself I can make sure these sour areas get what they need. I have had a truck in before to spread composted manure and really all they want to do is get rid of it as fast as they can.
Yeh I probably don't use a lot of science in what I do but information on what is needed to make these soils in our district perform is readily available and that is my starting point and we will see what response I get. I made sure that in my bad areas I won't be wondering if I put enough on.
Hope you enjoyed the photos of my setup.
Ken

 

[inyati13]

GB: Your research into lime has awaken the geologist in me. There is an entire branch of geology for the study of carbonate rocks. I currently live in one of the world renown areas of carbonate geology. Not only is it famous for the variety, abundance and perfection of the fossils of Ordovician age, it is known for the the layers of sedimantary rock that form a broad structural arch, The Cincinnati Dome.

If you ever wondered why Kentucky became known for race horses, it was because when the early settlers raised their draft horses and riding horses the highly mineralized limestone rocks that is the parent material for the soils in much of Kentucky supported strong bones and healthy horses. Works well for bovines also. That limestone is the result of the erosion of the stratified rocks deposited on an ancient epicontinental sea floor. The countless years of deposition of the calcareous skeletal particles of the little critters that swan in that ancient sea formed some of the world's best limestones. Those limestones exposed by the erosion of the Cincinnati Dome led to our great soils particularly in the area of the race horse farms in Lexington. My farm is in the Outer Blue Grass which you will notice I list as part of my location. Here the parent materials for our soils includes many of those Ordovician limestones.

Growing up, I always wondered what some of those critters were in the rocks on the farm. Little did I know at the time that those little marine invertebrates were living in an ancient ocean where our farm was over 450 million years ago. Here in this area is the "type" strata for some of the fossils of that period. Maysville is world famous for a brachiopod of the Genus Platystrophia. Paleontologist from all over the world come to Maysville to view the formations and members that make up that part of the stratigraphy of the Cincinnati Dome.

BTW: Many of the more liberal creationist can no longer look at the billions of pages of data on the geological history of the planet and continue to say that the "devil" did that to deceive us. They have altered their beliefs to help them swallow the bitter pill of science. They now say that, yes, the earth is more than one week old and there is a progression of life in the geological record from simplest to more complex. But that is the way God created the heavens and earth. What ever works.

 

[dun]

Holy crapola, 120 bucks for a oil test, that would be hard to take. I wonder if one of those cheapo home testing kits would be accurate enough to be worthwhile. Soiltests here run 30 bucks and at that I probably don;t test as often as I should. Usually I just use observations to figure out if something is lacking enough to do a soil test. Bright green where the cows pee, grass growth slower then expected, the color of the grass, etc.

 

[inyati13]

Holy crapola, 120 bucks for a oil test, that would be hard to take. I wonder if one of those cheapo home testing kits would be accurate enough to be worthwhile. Soiltests here run 30 bucks and at that I probably don;t test as often as I should. Usually I just use observations to figure out if something is lacking enough to do a soil test. Bright green where the cows pee, grass growth slower then expected, the color of the grass, etc.

This is really going to kill Ken. Here in KY, the first 10 soil tests are free. The process:

1. Go to the county extension office and get the bags and soil coring tool
2. Locate your 10 sampling points
3. Take 5 cores and composite them in a bucket
4. Mix the composites and fill the bag
5. Take the sample to the agent

The results include lime and fertilizer requirements and the agent provides the recommendations. All free!!!!

If you go over 10 samples, they are only $10 apiece.

 

[greybeard]

Unless something has changed here in Texas that I don't know about, the county agent doesn't do it anymore. You either go to the agent, or request from TAMU, get the sample bag and the form, take your samples, composite them and then mail them off straight to TAMU with a check of MO for $25 or $30 (I forget) and you get the results back in a week or so.
Used to, the local FFA/4h or Voc AG class and instructor would come out and do it, but that's been several decades ago.

The results are sometimes surprising. My brother-in-law--a great gardener sent his sample off last year and found out he was way high in phos and the instructions were NOT to add any kind of phos for at least 5 years.

There is no limestone close by me (unless you count straight down about 680 feet). But central texas aroound Austin/San Antonio hill country is riddled with limestone caves and karst action and that's where most of the ag lime comes from here.
It's fairly cheap from the bigger suppliers-except the transport costs. One of the local feed outlets does rent the buggies, but the limestone itself is theirs that they load into the buggy from 50lb bags @ $4/bag--comes out to $200/ton by the time you get the buggy home, tax and diesel, which is waay to much. And--it's pelletized--not the really small ground up stuff.
The lime I had spread on pastures came out of Lufkin which is about 80 miles away spread for about $35/ton--still high, but it is what was available.

 

[highgrit]

We pay the same here as Greybeard does.

 

[J&D Cattle]

$7.40/ton from the quarry here. Trucker charged $7.00/ton to haul. I'm going to spread it myself as I can rent the buggy for $100/day. Local MFA wanted $23.50/ton spread which isn't bad but I didn't trust the moron not to get hung up.