LA-200 adverse reaction in calf.

[Stepper]

I took a calf to the vet 2 days ago for foot rot. The vet said it was a pretty bad case of rot. He cleaned the foot with a water hose then poured bleach into the infected area. Then gave it a shot of LA-200 33 cc,s.

He ask me how much the calf weighed. He guessed it to weigh 550 to 600lbs ( it is out of a average frame black commerical cow and registered black angus bull). The calf was born the first week of Feburary 07. I guessed it to weigh 400lbs. because of its age and it just looks to weigh about 400lbs to me. So the vet said he dosed it for 750lbs. He said he wanted to make sure it had a good dose of antibiotics in its system. And he said he wanted me to repeat this treatment in 48 hours.

So i did this morning. I gave the calf a shot of LA-200 Sub Q in its neck below the skin( not in the mussel) just in front of its shoulder. I cleaned the hoof out and poured bleach in the wound. And let it out in the pen.

About 5 min later the calf starts foaming at the mouth and breathing very rapaidly. I watched it for about an hour and it continued this but did drink some water. I went back 4 hours later to check on it and it was laying besided the water tub with its nose in the water but stood up when i walked up. It seemed to be breathing harder with its tougne hanging out and alot of drool coming out of its mouth.

There was not much shade in the catch pen so i let it out in the pasture so that it could find some and it went to a shade tree and was standing under it when i left it.

Any opinions as to what might of went wrong ? I think the dosage was to high. The directions reccommends a dosage of 3-5 mg per pound of body weight for foot rot but in sever cases it reccommends 5 mg per pound. But i am not sure how many mg are in 1 cc.

I know for like 400 lbs the chart recommends 18 ccs and 750lbs 33 cc.

 

[Bez>]

Possible anaphylactic shock?

Rare, but it can and does happen.

If you had called your veterinarian immediately - he or his staff would quite possibly have had a quick recommendation.

While I do not have my "doc book" handy I believe it might have been to administer a dose of epinephrine to counter the shock.

All of the above is what I consider a darned good reason to NOT go off label for drugs.

Hope all turns out ok.

Bez>

 

[Stepper]

I did try to call the vet immdeiately when i first saw what was happening. My vet does not work on Wednsedays. And i learned today when his answering machine picked up he dose not take emergency calls anymore either.

He is really a good vet that has gained alot of popularity and everyone here uses him. There was one other vet in town but could not come out right away.

This is the second time i needed my vet in a emergency. I am not blameing him for what happened but i am going to start using another vet some as to not be counting on my vet all of the time. My current vet has become to independent to count on during emergencys.

By the way Bez i used your method of giving the shot and it worked real well i thought. I did cheat a little bit and pull the skin out a little to avoid hitting mussel.

 

[Mongoose]

Conversions:

CC's are half of the Mg's.

1mg - 0.5CC
2mg - 1.0CC
3mg - 1.5CC
4mg - 2.0CC
5mg - 2.5CC

And so and so forth.

 

[Howdyjabo]

We double LA200 routinely - never had a problem
I have seen some foam at the mouth - but I have seen that with other treatments too.

I have seen what you described when a calf got too hot while being treated.

 

[Stepper]

Ok i read something about no more than 10 ccs per injection site ? Well i gave the whole 33 ccs at the same site ? Could that be what i done wrong ? And why are you suppose to not inject more than 10 ccs at one injection site ?

 

[Bez>]

Ok i read something about no more than 10 ccs per injection site ? Well i gave the whole 33 ccs at the same site ? Could that be what i done wrong ? And why are you suppose to not inject more than 10 ccs at one injection site ?

Tsk, tsk - I have worked in places that would have fired you on the spot for that.

Now, look at the amount of meds 33 cc's is.

Then imagine dividing that by three - to make it about the same equivalent dose I would give to you.

Then imagine I stuck it in you and gave it all to you in the neck.

I know my response may peece you off - but it is time to take a couple of animal husbandry courses, it is time to learn to read and think before you act and it is time you became a responsible animal owner.

Shape up young fellow - you may end up doing more harm than good and just because it is an animal and not a human does not make it right.

A cow is a living breathing thing - you like torture?

I can doctor and I can kill - I do them both on a fairly regular basis - and not always because I want to - but I do it all with a bit of respect for the animal - you treat them with distain.

You might want to act upon my ROCK solid advice - even if you do not like the tone.

And do not complain about the tone - would you treat your dammed dog like this??

Probably not.

Ignorance is NOT an excuse!

Your answer will tell us a lot about you and your character.

Bez>

 

[Stepper]

No i dont mind your tone at all. I have it coming. If i screwed up i have it coming. I would not intentionally do anything at all to harm any animal.

After taking the calf to the vet that day and then taking it to the holding pen and dropping it off. I went back to the vets office and told him i had never given a calf a shot before and ask him how to give it. But unfortunately i did not do it right.

When i came back to the vet he made the comment " your back so soon ?" And i told him that i had never given a calf a shot before and he knows i have given alot of shots to horses and worked with alot bad injuries on them. At the time i was speaking to him he was checking a horse to see if it was bred and he showed me on its neck where to give the shot. He was busy with alot of clients and i did not get to speak with him as long as i would like to have spoke with him. I guess he assumed i knew enough to give the shot and i thought i did.

I wont do it again. But i still dont see what giving all of the shot at one injection site does ? Tell me what does it do ? Why is this wrong ?

And also i watched the vet give the first shot although i was looking over his shoulder. And i did not see him swithch injection sites.

 

[Bez>]

No i dont mind your tone at all. I have it coming. If i screwed up i have it coming. I would not intentionally do anything at all to harm any animal.

After taking the calf to the vet that day and then taking it to the holding pen and dropping it off. I went back to the vets office and told him i had never given a calf a shot before and ask him how to give it. But unfortunately i did not do it right.

When i came back to the vet he made the comment " your back so soon ?" And i told him that i had never given a calf a shot before and he knows i have given alot of shots to horses and worked with alot bad injuries on them. At the time i was speaking to him he was checking a horse to see if it was bred and he showed me on its neck where to give the shot. He was busy with alot of clients and i did not get to speak with him as long as i would like to have spoke with him. I guess he assumed i knew enough to give the shot and i thought i did.

I wont do it again. But i still dont see what giving all of the shot at one injection site does ? Tell me what does it do ? Why is this wrong ?

And also i watched the vet give the first shot although i was looking over his shoulder. And i did not see him swithch injection sites.

All right - I take a deep breathe and state you need to take some courses - it will make you a far better animal owner / handler / farm doc.

You need to learn to read, think and ask - before you act!

Now - think about what I said - ALL of that liquid injected into one area takes up a big piece of space. In other words it hurts like schitt! And it can do damage to muscle and tissue.

THAT is why you reduce the volume to an area. Multiple sites - I usually never put two sites closer than six inches - and I will often walk around to the other side of the cow for the second injection. Same location - just the other side.

It would be no different than me giving you the full load in one place - your upper left arm - would you want that? Not likely.

Call your local cattle assoc and ask about their next seminar on animal health or animals period - and then go - go to them all. You will learn a lot.

If they do not run them ask if they know what organization does - and then call them. Keep asking until you find out who does them in your area.

If you are interested enough in this, it will make you a better cattleman - and at the same time give you a leg up on maybe even making some money down the road - because your animals will be healthy and gain faster and better and so on and so forth.

Just because someone can put cows in the field does not make them a cattleman.

Knowledge is power - grab all you can. Start learning now and do not quit until they plant you. Then give it all away every chance you have.

Regards,

Bez>

 

[Stepper]

Bez,

I have no excuse for what i did. And your right ignorance is not an excuse. And i dont blame you for your response and i have it coming.

But i did not knowingly do this on purpose and would not under no circumstances do harm to any animal. I go to alot of extra exspense to be able to take care of my animals that i dont think some people would do.

I have not been raising cows for very long and at first i did not think it would be that much different than horses. But i am learning fast that there is alot of difference.

Alot of times a person is put in the position to where you have to try and do things on your own with cattle. This very calf that i gave the shot to was the one that i had to pull. And i did not want to have to do that. I had never pulled a calf before and i called the vet to try and to get him to come out that time. But he would'nt so right or wrong i was put in the position to have to do it. And i had been reading and tring to learn all i could in case i did have to do it. And after talking with the vet about why i pulled it he said i was right by doing it. Because the heifer had been in labor for so long and the calfs tounge had began to swell.

But before i had pulled it i had two cattlemen who had been in cattle most of their lifes come out earlier to look at the heifer while she was tring to have it and they said it would probably have it on its own by morning.

I am not always right in what i do. But whatever i do when i am making a decession i try to make the right one. Sometimes there is nobody arround when it is time to make that decession. But i do learn from my mistakes and try not let them happen again.

As far as the shot hurting any shots that was ever given to me were given at the same injection site. But i can see where some of these serums that are given to big animals may burn or something like that.

But that day the vet gave the calf the shot. He gave the whole 33 ccs on the same side of the neck, i guess not in the same injection site though.

 

[Bez>]

Bez,

I have no excuse for what i did. And your right ignorance is not an excuse. And i dont blame you for your response and i have it coming.

But i did not knowingly do this on purpose and would not under no circumstances do harm to any animal. I go to alot of extra exspense to be able to take care of my animals that i dont think some people would do.

I have not been raising cows for very long and at first i did not think it would be that much different than horses. But i am learning fast that there is alot of difference.

Alot of times a person is put in the position to where you have to try and do things on your own with cattle. This very calf that i gave the shot to was the one that i had to pull. And i did not want to have to do that. I had never pulled a calf before and i called the vet to try and to get him to come out that time. But he would'nt so right or wrong i was put in the position to have to do it. And i had been reading and tring to learn all i could in case i did have to do it. And after talking with the vet about why i pulled it he said i was right by doing it. Because the heifer had been in labor for so long and the calfs tounge had began to swell.

But before i had pulled it i had two cattlemen who had been in cattle most of their lifes come out earlier to look at the heifer while she was tring to have it and they said it would probably have it on its own by morning.

I am not always right in what i do. But whatever i do when i am making a decession i try to make the right one. Sometimes there is nobody arround when it is time to make that decession. But i do learn from my mistakes and try not let them happen again.

As far as the shot hurting any shots that was ever given to me were given at the same injection site. But i can see where some of these serums that are given to big animals may burn or something like that.

But that day the vet gave the calf the shot. He gave the whole 33 ccs on the same side of the neck, i guess not in the same injection site though.

I am not going to bother you with more - but take the advice and get smart - that means schooling. You will find it very valuable - and it will make you a better cattleman.

This type of schooling is not classroom and exams - it is hands on and fun - go do it.

While you are at it - learn to AI - it can also provide you with cashflow - and you will meet a lot of other folks that in turn will teach you things.

That means you actually might make some money.

Two eyes to see - two ears to listen - a big brain to learn and one mouth to speak - think on that.

Regards

Bez>

 

[Mongoose]

I have a question in the event I ever have to give alot of med. How much is a good rule of thumb to follow? Most I ever gave in one spot was about 13cc's. Is that to much, it didnt ball up, steer didnt jump or make any indication it was hurting him.

 

[Bez>]

I have a question in the event I ever have to give alot of med. How much is a good rule of thumb to follow? Most I ever gave in one spot was about 13cc's. Is that to much, it didnt ball up, steer didnt jump or make any indication it was hurting him.

Rule of thumb?

10 cc per site

Bez>

 

[Mongoose]

I have a question in the event I ever have to give alot of med. How much is a good rule of thumb to follow? Most I ever gave in one spot was about 13cc's. Is that to much, it didnt ball up, steer didnt jump or make any indication it was hurting him.

Rule of thumb?

10 cc per site

Bez>

Thanks.

 

[Stepper]

Moongoose,

Neither did this calf that i gave the 33 ccs to today. Animals unfortuantly can not talk and tell you when they are hurting. So like Bez says, it is up to us to learn how to take care of them the right way.

After what happened today i will always be second guessing my self as to wether or not what i am doing is right.

Dont let it happen to you unless you know absolutely what you are doing. Double check and check somemore.

 

[Mongoose]

I wont let it happen to me, because I just learned it. 13cc isnt that much over the "Rule of Thumb". If I dont know something I always ask before I go and do it because what you do could kill your cattle and that in turn loses you alot of money.

 

[rockridgecattle]

hi,
another rule of thumb if you are going to have cattle is to have a bottle of epinephrine on hand. it does not cost much and should go out with you every time you treat or vaccinate cattle. Anaphalatic(sp) shock can be very fast and an oh boy situation. Running back to the drug box can be costly.
Write on each bottle in black marker how many CC/# on each bottle.
Should have a book that you write in what cow/calf
what drug
how much
IM/SQ
Withdrawl date
Injection site...neck
Broken needle
Reaction
Our customers look for quality assurance and we need to know what we've done
over dosing can be tricky and dangerous. Double over dose can be deadly. Too much is not always a good thing.
If we overdosed on a drug what happens. Cattle, horse are no different.
Vets sometimes know how far to push an overdose, expereinced cattle farmers might get away with it. But a second overdose too soon is nasty. If you read the La200 label its evry 4 days. So if you give a shot on Monday then you would treat again on thursday. Lucky the calf lived....bleach...that had to hurt...i might have done an iodine scrub and washed with that.

 

[Mongoose]

Cowboyup, where can I take these courses? Are they free? I see that you live in East TN so thats why I was asking you becuase I live in East TN also.

 

[Mongoose]

Thanks.

 

[dun]

LA200 and oll of the variaitons of it are highly irritating. What little we used it in the past it seemed the most likely to leave carcass lesions even when given subQ. I would never give the stuff in the muslce.