Had to pull a large (98 lb) bull calf from a first calf heifer - she was making very little progress on her own, the large calf was presented correctly but just too big - and it was a hard pull. She had no problem accepting it and is doing an excellent job mothering it. It is the first and only calf of a Red Angus bull that I won't be using again - but should I plan to ship the heifer as well? She calved at 26 or 27 months, is well grown but not fat, has been on pasture only, and caried the calf a week over her due date. Can I blame the bull or am I asking for trouble if I breed her again? Does it make sence to take a pelvic measurement in this situation?
Keep or ship hard pull heifer?
- Thread starter cowpunk'd
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randiliana
Well-known member
I'd keep her. First off, you don't know whether it was the bull, or if it was her, one calf doesn't give you much to go on. Secondly, having had that calf come out of her (pull or not) she is unlikely to have much trouble calving again. There is a chance, that she will always have bigger calves, or long gestational calves, but she would stay in our herd, so long as she raises a decent calf, at least one more year. If she does this again and you have to help her, then for sure cull her.
oscar p
Well-known member
I'm with randi. I'd Keep her. She's doing her job,She just needed a little help getting started.
dcara
Well-known member
Was the heifer a RA also? IF the Sire of the heifers Dam was registered you can look at his CEM EPD(calving ease maternal) to see if his daughters might be expected to have calving issues; and, of course what was the CED EPD (calving ease direct) for the RA bull you used. If you know them, would you mind emailing the registration numbers for the heifer's daddy and also the bull you used.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
I would ship her to the locker plant,
because I just don't want to have to take a chance on pulling calves.
because I just don't want to have to take a chance on pulling calves.
MichaelB
Well-known member
I don't think a 98 lb. calf was her fault. But I would re-evaluate after calf number two.
vclavin
Well-known member
I believe I'd ask the vet, he's supposed to know those things? We rely on ours for help with breeding/calving issues. We now get pelvic scores on all our yearling heifers, they have to meet certain weight and pelvic size or don't get bred - too small will lead to pulling calves or c-section everytime. If possible, we get the pelvic score of the bull as well - it hereditary. Our heifers can easily handle the occasional high bw calf (90-100lbs) with no problems.
Valerie
Valerie
Oldtimer
Well-known member
First calf heifer- if she breeds back on time, keep her... I'd have no worries about her having any future calving problems- my only concern would be the hard delivery may have torn something up to keep her from breeding back or being late....But if she delivered a 98 lb calf I doubt if she ever has another problem...
But I think I would do a little more looking and evaluating when buying a heifer bull.... I put a lot of effort into researching bulls BW's and CED, and their ancestry's calving ease/BW-- and haven't had to pull a calf from a heifer in years- except for one that went cavorting with a neighbors Charolais bull and had a 100 lb calf....Since then she's had two calves out of my bulls that weighed 78 and 82 lbs...
But I think I would do a little more looking and evaluating when buying a heifer bull.... I put a lot of effort into researching bulls BW's and CED, and their ancestry's calving ease/BW-- and haven't had to pull a calf from a heifer in years- except for one that went cavorting with a neighbors Charolais bull and had a 100 lb calf....Since then she's had two calves out of my bulls that weighed 78 and 82 lbs...
Thanks for all the replies. The Dam of this heifer was sired by Wilmo Right Time, a Black Angus. The heifer was sired by a registered bull, but I have lost the straw and my vet doesn't keep records. The heifer was not injured at all from the hard pull and is cycling allready, I figure if I have her a.i'd with a calving ease bull the vet can evaluate her at the same time. The big bull calf is catching up in size with a Red Angus sired calf born 5 weeks before him (sired by Red Champlain Serenade out of 8 yr old cow).
You are right, Oldtimer - I could have done more research into the bulls e.p.d's, he is not registered but he came from registered stock. I'll admit I assumed he would sire small calves because I bought him as a yearling from a lady who kept and managed a bull and about 15 cows by herself, while keeping a regular job, and she didn't really seem to know that much about cattle. I assumed anything needing to be pulled wouldn't have gotten born at all.
You are right, Oldtimer - I could have done more research into the bulls e.p.d's, he is not registered but he came from registered stock. I'll admit I assumed he would sire small calves because I bought him as a yearling from a lady who kept and managed a bull and about 15 cows by herself, while keeping a regular job, and she didn't really seem to know that much about cattle. I assumed anything needing to be pulled wouldn't have gotten born at all.
cattleman99
Well-known member
Cycling or not now my experiences with hard pulls is if it's a first calver they usually either don't breed back or are the last to calve the following year. Hopefully you have better luck than I have.
I wouldn't mess around with AI in this situation and would get her right with a bull. You'll have a much better chance of conception. I seldomly ever try to breed my first calvers AI. I've found over the years there is no sense in messing around with AI on first calvers as if there is ever an open it's either a first calver or an old cow.
I wouldn't mess around with AI in this situation and would get her right with a bull. You'll have a much better chance of conception. I seldomly ever try to breed my first calvers AI. I've found over the years there is no sense in messing around with AI on first calvers as if there is ever an open it's either a first calver or an old cow.
TexasBred
Well-known member
cattleman99":3qb9hvjp said:
Guess we all can have different views of the same picture. We AI everything and first calvers are very fertile as are the older cows or they wouldn't still be around. Course my AI tech is a real ace too. ;-)
cattleman99
Well-known member
Fertility isn't a problem around my place either. But every old cow will eventually either raise a dud or come in open at some point. In general I find if there ever is an open it's the 1st calf heifer. Doesn't happen a lot but it happens from time to time. I found it's a lot easier to just run them with the bulls. Always end up with better conception rates. Besides in general I find the AI bulls don't really provide much benefit other than introducing new lines into my cattle. Customers show up and ask If I have any calves off of different popular AI bulls and when I show them the calves they generally end up buying the ones off of the herdbulls as they are often better. You need a few of those AI calves to get the customer in the yard to begin with though. Most AI bulls are just prettier. The exception is I AI all the heifers. No sense experimenting with something I think will make a heifer bull when I can use one that is proven to be one.
TexasBred
Well-known member
Everybody will get a huge calf from 'no where' sooner or latter. Just always hope it's latter. Like OT said, haven't pulled one in ages and hope I don't have to. Calves average less than 80 lbs. regardless of size or age of the cow or the bull it seems.
Update: I kept the heifer. She bred back to the same bull pretty quick and she has delivered a 70 lb heifer unassisted. Last years hard pull bull calf came on July 22 and this years streamlined heifer came on May 31 so she did good. Another heifer delivered a 75 lb bull calf by the same bull. Her first calf and no problems. So now I am guessing that last years hard pull calf was just bad luck and not the bull or the heifers fault.
Have to add another update to this old conversation. I bred back to the same bull for this years calves. The heifer that had her first calf no problem last year, surprised me with twins this year. Both girls, around 65 lbs. each, unassisted, she cleaned right away and she is mothering them well. Moved up her calving interval by about 6 weeks. My old lame cow that I considered selling for $200 in the fall (cull prices are very low here) has calved a huge heifer, somewhere around 120 lb. Unassisted and doing fine. The original hard pull heifer will be calving very soon.
SSGenetics
Well-known member
cowpunk'd":3njr2rc6 said:
Sounds like you really are living right! :clap:
Gotta ask though, where the heck do you live? Culls bringing $200?? Im on my way with a semi! :cowboy:
