Importance of a soil test

[Jogeephus]

Sky's tomato thread got me to thinking about the many threads we've had this spring with people asking how much and what type fertilizer to use on their pastures when so many never bothered to take a soil test. It was as if there is some some magic potion out there that would make all pastures grow well. I think Dun, who we all know seems to have the patience of Job, even got flustered with one of these threads. So while I'm not picking on Sky and his rotten tomatoes I thought I might put down something some may or may not know. Either way its worth being reminded of.

We all bytch about the cost of fertilizer but have you ever wondered just how good your fertilizer is?

Lets say you haven't pulled a soil test and your pH has dropped to 5. If you apply 100 lbs of N you lose 47% of this amount because the pH is off. In the case of phosphate you just lost 66% of that. Potash 47% wasted. So basically you are paying for a gallon of gas and happily walking away carrying a half gallon container with a shyt eating grin on your face thinking how brilliant you are because you are so penny wise by not wasting money on a soil test. (actual loss 53.67%)

Not only is this doubling your cost of your fertility program or at best giving you half azz production but you creating an avenue for weed infestation when in many cases weeds can be controlled through a good soil fertility program. But Lord how some love to spray their weeds.

Given these parameters in my situation the expenditure of $80/acre in lime would save me $960/acre over a three year period or when I'm ramped up it will save me somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000 a year. I know this is chump change to some who can sell a calf for that but for us poor folks who are just trying to scratch a living from the land its quite a bit of money.

In a more practical example of what I deal with on my place I'm normally only needing to add a ton of lime to get things back where they need to be. Out of that ton, I can expect to get an 11% increase in the effectiveness of the N and a 48% increase in the phosphorous - no increase in the K. Anyone in Georgia who has bought P can attest that they are proud of this nutrient.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share these figures because I found its sometimes easier to understand numbers than words.

And Sky, again, I'm not picking on your rotten tomatoes! ;-) :lol2:

 

[highgrit]

A fool and his money is soon departed. Anyone that puts fertilizer out without a soil sample is a fool, or a wanna be.

 

[Ouachita]

Jo you have certainly carried the equation further than I as for the real numbers. I learned the lesson the hard way about 15 years ago. It was at that time I became aware of the importance of pH, and soil test. Great post for the grass farmers and gardeners among us

 

[skyhightree1]

Darn you jo you leave me and my maters alone :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: The ones I been picking the last few days haven't had any rot :lol2: I test my pastures yearly though.

 

[kenny thomas]

Jo, great post. Here the only cost is to mail the samples. The testing is free.

 

[Craig Miller]

We have never tested. We also dont fertilize. In fact i dont know anyone who does test. I will when i get on my own though. I could use an extra 40k

 

[jedstivers]

Doesn't cost anything to test here either. We have a very small Fertilizer and lime tax that pays for the soil lab. I do hire someone to pull the samples though. I can't imagine not testing. The crop ground is tested every three years. We do a third of the farm a year and do it on 5 acre grids. Fert and lime are applied variable rate.

 

[Nesikep]

We haven't tested, but we know we're short of phosphorus.. and we're on the alkaline side of the pH scale.. For the most part the cows do the fertilizing... Any kind of tests around here cost a fair bit

 

[Dave]

At work I run a couple hundred tests per year and I write up recommendations for those tested fields. But sort of like a mechanic working on his own car, I often neglect to test my own place. And when I do it is because something isn't right. I'll get the results back and cuss myself for being stupid and not testing. It isn't rocket surgery. Even where you are paying for the testing it is only about $25 counting the shipping.

 

[Bigfoot]

Sky's tomato thread got me to thinking about the many threads we've had this spring with people asking how much and what type fertilizer to use on their pastures when so many never bothered to take a soil test. It was as if there is some some magic potion out there that would make all pastures grow well. I think Dun, who we all know seems to have the patience of Job, even got flustered with one of these threads. So while I'm not picking on Sky and his rotten tomatoes I thought I might put down something some may or may not know. Either way its worth being reminded of.

We all bytch about the cost of fertilizer but have you ever wondered just how good your fertilizer is?

Lets say you haven't pulled a soil test and your pH has dropped to 5. If you apply 100 lbs of N you lose 47% of this amount because the pH is off. In the case of phosphate you just lost 66% of that. Potash 47% wasted. So basically you are paying for a gallon of gas and happily walking away carrying a half gallon container with a shyt eating grin on your face thinking how brilliant you are because you are so penny wise by not wasting money on a soil test. (actual loss 53.67%)

Not only is this doubling your cost of your fertility program or at best giving you half azz production but you creating an avenue for weed infestation when in many cases weeds can be controlled through a good soil fertility program. But Lord how some love to spray their weeds.

Given these parameters in my situation the expenditure of $80/acre in lime would save me $960/acre over a three year period or when I'm ramped up it will save me somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000 a year. I know this is chump change to some who can sell a calf for that but for us poor folks who are just trying to scratch a living from the land its quite a bit of money.

In a more practical example of what I deal with on my place I'm normally only needing to add a ton of lime to get things back where they need to be. Out of that ton, I can expect to get an 11% increase in the effectiveness of the N and a 48% increase in the phosphorous - no increase in the K. Anyone in Georgia who has bought P can attest that they are proud of this nutrient.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share these figures because I found its sometimes easier to understand numbers than words.

And Sky, again, I'm not picking on your rotten tomatoes! ;-) :lol2:

Great post. I too am a believer that good fertility doesn't cost, it pays. I do fall in the category of loving to spray though. I have never had the opportunity to manage a warm season grass pasture or hay field. It ain't from lack of trying though. I can see how Bahia grass, or a hybred bermuda growing in a fertile soil, could choke out weeds. Here, where I'm the caretaker of a cool season pasture, a warm season weed has the advantage. I'm not plagued with cool season weeds. Bulbous buttercup for instance. I have almost none. I don't even spray for it. My fescue is thick enough to choke it out. This week in Ky, the advantage goes to the weeds. Fescue is stalled out, and standing still. Weeds are, growing like a weed. They are also sucking up my fertilizer, and dipping in to moisture in the soil. I've just about got to spray them, because my fertilizer is too expensive to waste.
I'm sure not many people in my area, spray for weeds. Infact it'd be a good guess that almost nobody does. I can't understand them not spraying. It's $6-$12 an acre, and is bound to save me money in the long run. How much? I'll never know.

 

[HDRider]

Got it Jo.

Say you got a 60 acre patch, rises and falls, a little hilly. How many samples do I take?

 

[Jogeephus]

Got it Jo.

Say you got a 60 acre patch, rises and falls, a little hilly. How many samples do I take?

It really depends on how you are able to apply the fertilizer or lime. Ideally, you want to break the field into uniform units and fertilize each one according to its needs but you may not have that option. Its pretty common here. Say you have 20 acres of sloping land, 30 acres in the bottoms and 10 acres on ridge tops. This would be three different soil test areas. Ideally, you would want to take a sample of soil on each acre in each area and keep them separated by area.

In each of these areas the number of plugs should be equal to the acreage in each sample area. But that's ideally. I don't take that many but I don't have much variation because my variation is more on soil type and I know where these changes are. If you don't have the option to use a variable rate spreader tied to GPS then you are really have no choice but to take one sample made up of all your plugs. The important thing to remember is whatever number of plugs you take this number needs to be in proportion to the lay of the land. What I mean is, if you are only going to take a plug every 5 acres then you would need 4 on the slope, 6 in the bottoms and two on the ridge tops otherwise you will skew your sample because you don't want to take them all in the bottom or all on the top of the hill. You are just looking for a good average.

 

[Jogeephus]

Bigfoot, I know very little about fescue. I do know if I could grow it here my life would be so much easier because fescue would economically fill my winter grazing gap but I think the grazing gap effects us all in one way or the other. Curse of Eve is what I attribute it to.

That said, I was lucky enough to have worked on the USDA grazing station a few years and their main area of research at the time was flatwoods grazing before they lost funding and the land was turned over to the university. There were some old hands on the place that opened my eyes to some things I don't think many even consider today. Today the emphasis seems to be on fast gains where they were studying low input cattle production. From talks with these guys I view things differently than many. They taught me to question what is a weed and explained how a cow isn't going to have but one calf a year so what's the rush. To some, this may sound crazy but if you stop and think, it makes a lot of sense. Its a shame most of the research was never published and was just put in boxes when the funding ended so I feel blessed that I was able to at least hear some of the observations of the guys conducting the studies.

Sometimes I cringe when I watch someone spray winter weeds which will soon die on their own when spring comes. Or I cringe when I see someone trying to force a pasture to a pure monoculture when the "weeds" they are killing have a higher TDN than the forage they are favoring. But like you point out, every area is different and has different challenges but I don't see where anyone can go wrong if they stop and ask a few questions and do a little homework on native forages. If I'm not mistaken, your area had a lot of buffalo at one time and I suspect they ate things other than fescue. Knowing what this forage was could prove profitable I'd think.

With cow prices high I am in the planning stage of expanding some grazing land and putting it into some woods grazing. Its not going to be easy to do but I think in the long run its going to be cost effective especially once we change the understory from a brush dominated understory to one consisting primarily of grasses and forbes. If nothing else, it should be interesting.

 

[Bigfoot]

Bigfoot, I know very little about fescue. I do know if I could grow it here my life would be so much easier because fescue would economically fill my winter grazing gap but I think the grazing gap effects us all in one way or the other. Curse of Eve is what I attribute it to.

That said, I was lucky enough to have worked on the USDA grazing station a few years and their main area of research at the time was flatwoods grazing before they lost funding and the land was turned over to the university. There were some old hands on the place that opened my eyes to some things I don't think many even consider today. Today the emphasis seems to be on fast gains where they were studying low input cattle production. From talks with these guys I view things differently than many. They taught me to question what is a weed and explained how a cow isn't going to have but one calf a year so what's the rush. To some, this may sound crazy but if you stop and think, it makes a lot of sense. Its a shame most of the research was never published and was just put in boxes when the funding ended so I feel blessed that I was able to at least hear some of the observations of the guys conducting the studies.

Sometimes I cringe when I watch someone spray winter weeds which will soon die on their own when spring comes. Or I cringe when I see someone trying to force a pasture to a pure monoculture when the "weeds" they are killing have a higher TDN than the forage they are favoring. But like you point out, every area is different and has different challenges but I don't see where anyone can go wrong if they stop and ask a few questions and do a little homework on native forages. If I'm not mistaken, your area had a lot of buffalo at one time and I suspect they ate things other than fescue. Knowing what this forage was could prove profitable I'd think.

With cow prices high I am in the planning stage of expanding some grazing land and putting it into some woods grazing. Its not going to be easy to do but I think in the long run its going to be cost effective especially once we change the understory from a brush dominated understory to one consisting primarily of grasses and forbes. If nothing else, it should be interesting.

Another great post.
Every warm season grass I try fails. After the failure, the area gets over taken by crabgrass. Drought of 2012, killed out a pretty large area of fescue. When we finally got a rain, crabgrass exploded there. My yard is basically crabgrass. I'm starting to see a pattern. I've been managing a stand for a pretty good while now through rotational grazing. It's about as thick as I've ever seen. It's also the only place I can get rye to grow. The key seems to be keeping it short, but not so short it has trouble coming back out. If it gets too tall, everything looses intrest in it. I've thought about starting a thread about it, but haven't gotten around to it. The area I'm managing is actually for my horses, and horse threads aren't well recieved anyway. After I move the horses, I follow them with a few stockers. After I move them, I mow it, and let rebound. Comes back strong in a week, and the process starts over.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Watch out BF, sounds like Jo's going to have your pasture in weeds and you'll be running buffalo next thing you know. :lol2:

Jo had a post quite a while back about why fight ma nature when you can use her to your advantage- or something pretty near. I've thought about that a bunch of times and try to find any free lunches I can. Made a lot of sense to me.

Speaking of what buffalo ate reminded me of a small lot at my grandparent's place. It was a native grass, always heard it called buffalo grass- I don't know if that is an accurate name. I assumed it had been there since time began. It was short and clumped, real fine blades. I don't think that you'd pay the bills with acres and acres of it, but it was interesting to me. Used the lot to straighten out stocker calves in the late summer, they sure seemed to like it.

 

[Jogeephus]

Every warm season grass I try fails. After the failure, the area gets over taken by crabgrass. Drought of 2012, killed out a pretty large area of fescue. When we finally got a rain, crabgrass exploded there. My yard is basically crabgrass. I'm starting to see a pattern. I've been managing a stand for a pretty good while now through rotational grazing. It's about as thick as I've ever seen. It's also the only place I can get rye to grow. The key seems to be keeping it short, but not so short it has trouble coming back out. If it gets too tall, everything looses intrest in it. I've thought about starting a thread about it, but haven't gotten around to it. The area I'm managing is actually for my horses, and horse threads aren't well recieved anyway. After I move the horses, I follow them with a few stockers. After I move them, I mow it, and let rebound. Comes back strong in a week, and the process starts over.

You hit the nail on the head with that statement. You know we all talk about how the city slickers have lost touch with the land but in truth we all have to some extent. I think most of us have been sold the belief that there is some cook book method of growing forages and most of this comes from research which is being funded by entities who have a financial interest in our following this recipe. Not saying the information is wrong but you really have to look at what you are trying to accomplish. The forage needs of brood cows is much different than what you need to be profitable for stockers so one size doesn't fit all.

This "pattern" you mention, I think, is the tip of the iceberg of the knowledge the old shepherds and cowboys used with their herds and I'm afraid much of this knowledge is forgotten. If you watch the cows they can teach you a lot. Like Tim said, they eat the most nutritious foods first. This is what I found so interesting at the grazing station. The old guys worked like shepherds following the cattle around. They would place wire baskets as sample points throughout the range to measure and identify what the cattle were eating. This changed by the month just as your nutritional content of your hay changes with time and the cattle's grazing habits would change with time. Just as with time, time also effects the pH of the soil so this plays a part. For instance, I can put two tons of lime in the virgin flatwoods and the understory will change completely in just a few months. Forbes and legumes will spring up as if by magic and it will stay that way for about five years and the ruminants will make b-lines to these limed areas as if they can smell it.

I hate it but I can be pretty slow at times and I wish I'd paid closer attention to what these guys had to say because they had a wealth of practical knowledge between their ears.....and they raised some bell ringing cattle to boot. As mentioned, I'm slow at times and I'm not saying this is some magical method but I do think its worth paying attention to. If nothing else, its interesting.

 

[Ouachita]

I vote to make this thread a sticky

 

[Tim/South]

I have begun to have my fertilizer blended to meet the soil test results. This has saved me a lot of money by not adding what is not needed.
In the old days I would just apply 17-17-17 and think I had everything covered. In truth I was keeping everything out of proportion.

 

[Ouachita]

I learned the importance of pH and nutrient manage when I first got serious about gardening. I new it was important for grass too, but did not put forth effort to fine tune until after we were forced to do so.
For a few years now, because of the greenies, we now now live in a protected watershed district, the Mountanin Fork River Watershed. It has some sort of endangered mussel that lives there. I became aware of required compliance with this watershed criteria for application of any type nutrient and anything that alters pH. It happened when I tried to buy chicken litter from my neighbor, who is a state Rep. He could not legally sell it to me without a "Soil Nutrient Management Program", specifically for this watershed district. It was "free" with your and my tax dollars. They came out and did a thorough analysis including satellite photos dividing the place up into sections. The info became very valuable to me.
But folk that live in this watershed cannot buy or sell shyt or any type nutrient including Miracle Grow without having this nutrient management program.

HD, go to your local SCS office and they can probably get you set up, no charge. You'll get a book a half inch thick.

 

[dyates]

Great post. I too am a believer that good fertility doesn't cost, it pays. I do fall in the category of loving to spray though. I have never had the opportunity to manage a warm season grass pasture or hay field. It ain't from lack of trying though. I can see how Bahia grass, or a hybred bermuda growing in a fertile soil, could choke out weeds. Here, where I'm the caretaker of a cool season pasture, a warm season weed has the advantage. I'm not plagued with cool season weeds. Bulbous buttercup for instance. I have almost none. I don't even spray for it. My fescue is thick enough to choke it out. This week in Ky, the advantage goes to the weeds. Fescue is stalled out, and standing still. Weeds are, growing like a weed. They are also sucking up my fertilizer, and dipping in to moisture in the soil. I've just about got to spray them, because my fertilizer is too expensive to waste.
I'm sure not many people in my area, spray for weeds. Infact it'd be a good guess that almost nobody does. I can't understand them not spraying. It's $6-$12 an acre, and is bound to save me money in the long run. How much? I'll never know.

Very seldom do I spray anything other than a fence row and I don't spray those near enough. We here in ky are blessed with a plethora of "weeds" that make fantastic forage. I'm not saying you shouldn't spray, but you might be kidding yourself about the relationship between spraying and fertilizer costs. When you kill the weeds, you also kill most of your legumes. I haven't seeded my pastures ever, but I have lots of red and white clover, Korean lespedeza and medics.

It also never ceases to amaze me what some cows will eat if given the chance. I have even seen them pick the blooms off of Canada thistles. I'm also a fan of embracing what mother nature gives us. Johnson grass is a prime example for me. My neighbors all hate it, but I would love to have solid pastures of it. I think I could run about ten pairs to the acre if I rotated; plus its a perennial that I don't have to plant every year like millet.
My pasture look like hell from the road sometimes, but its kind of like the fly that walked across the mirror, its all in how you look at it.