I need input on a new bull

[snake67]

I have always used a Polled Hereford bull for clean up in my Polled Hereford herd. But I seem to have folks ringing the phone to get some beef. So wether I want it or not that's we're my hobby is headed.

I'm about two weeks from shipping my current clean-up bull and will buy another clean-up bull next spring. I'm thinking pretty seriously about going with another breed of bull just for clean-up. Here is my thoughts, please feel free to correct or add to my assumptions and opinions, as well as any other breed choices you may have and why that choice. I want an easy calving bull, so I'll stay away from some of the larger breeds and this isn't the climate for eared cattle.

1. The obvious; Black Angus. While I'm sure I won't have a problem finding a docile bull, I have been told they are very hard on fences. I have hot wire fences, but between deer and elk they are down too often.

2. Red Angus; any diffence at all from Black except color? As docile easier on fences etc.?

3. Red Poll; I know very little about them other than they are suppose to be very docile and good carcass traits. Would I have any less F1 vigor with Red Poll than an Angus?

4. I'll bring up Shorthorn, since Massey is not around to flood me with a bunch of sales B.S. but I know very little about them at any level.

5. Your suggestions :tiphat:

Thanks,
Alan

Actually I think you missed a great number of potential animals.

As I am not one to promote any breed specifically - despite my known preference for Horned Herfs! LOL - I would simply make the following suggestions.

Whatever you use for clean-up, make sure it is another colour.

This makes it really easy to see who was AI'd and who was not.

There are a multitude of black animals out there - in fact so many that there are now far too many "registered bulls" that in fact should have been made into hamburger.

You can also look at something to turn your animals tan in colour. Charolais pops into my head as one a many potentials. And if you have any decent frame size on your cows there will be no issues calving.

Tans and baldies are often the top sellers at market. If you plan to do farm gate freezer sales you do not care what the market does - except for serious culls - and they will take a hit no matter the colour.

If you think too much you will simply screw yourself. Find something easy to handle, quiet and go from there. Bulls sell easy at the market - so any mistakes are easily corrected.

Big thing - do not go "specialty" and do not spend a bunch of cash. This is a clean up bull - not something for you to better your herd with.

When you take their clothes off - all things being equal and the feed program being equal - Angus is no better than Maine, is no better than ..... you pick one. Once they are on the plate they pretty much all taste good if raised right and cooked right. Ever meet someone who did not say their breed of cattle tastes great?

Fact is - as I stated - other than marketing - the right feed program and the right slaughter, and the right aging and butchering will nearly always give you a great steak or roast - as long as the cook does not ruin it!

So keep your money in your jeans pocket - and for that matter - look at your own herd for that potential clean up bull if you are prepared to handle his calves as the same colour and markings - it would be your cheapest and under the right circumstances - the best solution.

Have fun and best to all

Bez

 

[bigbull338]

i going to throw the monkey wrench in the mess.why not stay with hereford bulls an steer the calves that arnt fit tobe bulls.that way your in both markets.an theres nothing wrong with hereford steers.

 

[3waycross]

i going to throw the monkey wrench in the mess.why not stay with hereford bulls an steer the calves that arnt fit tobe bulls.that way your in both markets.an theres nothing wrong with hereford steers.

So how's your new bull working out? I can't wait to see the pictures!

 

[SSGenetics]

i going to throw the monkey wrench in the mess.why not stay with hereford bulls an steer the calves that arnt fit tobe bulls.that way your in both markets.an theres nothing wrong with hereford steers.

So how's your new bull working out? I can't wait to see the pictures!

Ohh my...... Me too!

 

[Alan]

i going to throw the monkey wrench in the mess.why not stay with hereford bulls an steer the calves that arnt fit tobe bulls.that way your in both markets.an theres nothing wrong with hereford steers.

Thanks for the reply Bigbull, I'm keeping Herefords as an option, but in the last two years I have had to DNA two heifers to see if they were a little late or a little earlier to determine AI or clean up. I don't raise and sell bulls, I'm too small of a hobby guy, although I have raise a few of my own clean up bulls. So with keeping herfs as one option for a new bull, I'm really leaning toward a different breed clean up bull next time. With AIing to Herf bulls I'll still end up with Herf steers or with luck a good Herf clean up for the future. But with an Angus or balancer or etc., I can get some F1 vigor and a few extra bucks at the sale barn. Another problem with raising my own clean up bull in a small herd is genetics get pretty close some times, which I'm approaching with M326 lines in my herd. next year I should only calve out 14 head, to give all an idea of the size of my herd.

Thanks to all,
Alan

 

[ANAZAZI]

A homebred bull looks like a great option for cleanup in a herd of 14, where likely 10 settle AI first service. No loss if one of perhaps three calves sired by the cleanup bull may be close bred, versus three baldie calves sired by a bull bought for serious amounts of :2cents: out of pocket money.

 

[SRBeef]

I have always used a Polled Hereford bull for clean up in my Polled Hereford herd. But I seem to have folks ringing the phone to get some beef. So wether I want it or not that's we're my hobby is headed.

I'm about two weeks from shipping my current clean-up bull and will buy another clean-up bull next spring. I'm thinking pretty seriously about going with another breed of bull just for clean-up. Here is my thoughts, please feel free to correct or add to my assumptions and opinions, as well as any other breed choices you may have and why that choice. I want an easy calving bull, so I'll stay away from some of the larger breeds and this isn't the climate for eared cattle.

1. The obvious; Black Angus. While I'm sure I won't have a problem finding a docile bull, I have been told they are very hard on fences. I have hot wire fences, but between deer and elk they are down too often.

2. Red Angus; any diffence at all from Black except color? As docile easier on fences etc.?

3. Red Poll; I know very little about them other than they are suppose to be very docile and good carcass traits. Would I have any less F1 vigor with Red Poll than an Angus?

4. I'll bring up Shorthorn, since Massey is not around to flood me with a bunch of sales B.S. but I know very little about them at any level.

5. Your suggestions :tiphat:

Thanks,
Alan

If I understand you correctly you are having folks call you for freezer beef from your all-Hereford herd. You AI, presumably for growing heifers. So folks have probably had some of your beef and are calling to buy more or friends told them it is pretty good...etc. You have about 15 cows.

As posted above, if it ain't broke why fix it? You know Herefords. Folks like the beef.

I really like the retained Herf bull approach. If you are AI you know the genetics. Keep the best AI bull calf out of your best cow and use him as your cleanup bull. You can rotate the retained bull dam every year. I wouldn't worry to much about being to close genetically except for his dam but she is most likely been AI'd if I understand you.

Getting into a different breed of cleanup bull and esp if that bull might be breeding heifers, could have a whole lot of unintended consequences. And be a pain in the neck. And expensive.

I wouldn't be concerned about "sale barn pays more for black" if most will be sold for freezer beef. It's quality that counts hanging on the rail, not hide color. Disposition is less of an unknown when you retain your own bull out of a known cow.

jmho.

Jim

 

[tsmaxx47]

Don't out think yourself go with Angus and I have not heard the being hard on fences thing before. Sounds like an old wives tale to me.

ditto - have never heard that before.......

as SR said above, if it ain't broke, why mess with it.......

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the responses SR an and tsmaxx. SR, I don't think folks are starting to call because I raise Herfs, if I am gaining any rep at all it's because of how I raise, finish and process the beef. I let them know the beef is hormone free, anti biotic free, naturally raised. It's grass fed, grain finished. A no stress kill and hung 16 to 18 days for added tenderness. Meaning I don't sell the fact that it's a Hereford, most know it's a Hereford but I think if it was an angus or any other beef breed it would have no effect on my clients ...... the few I have. Remember, I'm a small time hobby guy who financial goal is to break even. My main goal in my hobby is to "build" the best bunch of polled Herefords possible. I will still be AIing to Herfs and will not keep any cross bred cows, just steers for future freezer beef. Since I will be AIing to Herfs I will no doubt have Herfs steers also. While I have raised my own clean up bulls in the past I have nothing in this years calf crop I would consider for a bull, be it from growth rate, looks, or predigree beginning to saturate the herd. With only 14 cows at this point I don't want to end up with a bunch of half sisters, mom and daughters, aunts cousins. I'm also planning on introducing new bulls to my tank that will compliment my goals .... I hope :? . As I said before, I have had to DNA test two heifers to determine if they are AI or clean up bull calves, I hate to have to answer the "is the calf early or late" question in my mind. I guess to me that's the only thing broken.

Great input and help for my next step in my hobby. I'll never be a star lake or Remital, (I purposely did name some of the great Herford ranchers who are member here. I would never put my cattle in the same sentence as their stock). I'm just having a good time with my hobby cattle.

Alan

 

[SRBeef]

Thanks for the responses SR an and tsmaxx. SR, I don't think folks are starting to call because I raise Herfs, if I am gaining any rep at all it's because of how I raise, finish and process the beef. I let them know the beef is hormone free, anti biotic free, naturally raised. It's grass fed, grain finished. A no stress kill and hung 16 to 18 days for added tenderness. Meaning I don't sell the fact that it's a Hereford, most know it's a Hereford but I think if it was an angus or any other beef breed it would have no effect on my clients ...... the few I have. Remember, I'm a small time hobby guy who financial goal is to break even. My main goal in my hobby is to "build" the best bunch of polled Herefords possible. I will still be AIing to Herfs and will not keep any cross bred cows, just steers for future freezer beef. Since I will be AIing to Herfs I will no doubt have Herfs steers also. While I have raised my own clean up bulls in the past I have nothing in this years calf crop I would consider for a bull, be it from growth rate, looks, or predigree beginning to saturate the herd. With only 14 cows at this point I don't want to end up with a bunch of half sisters, mom and daughters, aunts cousins. I'm also planning on introducing new bulls to my tank that will compliment my goals .... I hope :? . As I said before, I have had to DNA test two heifers to determine if they are AI or clean up bull calves, I hate to have to answer the "is the calf early or late" question in my mind. I guess to me that's the only thing broken.

Great input and help for my next step in my hobby. I'll never be a star lake or Remital, (I purposely did name some of the great Herford ranchers who are member here. I would never put my cattle in the same sentence as their stock). I'm just having a good time with my hobby cattle.

Alan

Thanks for the information. I am in a very similar situation as you. I have a straight Hereford herd and building the best group of straight polled Hereford cows that I can. Mine are "natural" as you describe. Most heifers are retained, steers sold as freezer beef. Grass raised but finished by grazing standing unharvested corn and are marketed at 13 months off of the corn so I can plant it again. This method produces a great beef product that folks seem to like.

One difference is that I do not AI. I have a good registered Huth bull and a few registered cows but most are commercial. I also retain one bull calf every year to spread the genes of one of my target 1200 lb cows around to select other unrelated cows that need them. I don't put the retained bull in with his dam or sisters but not afraid of a more distant relation. My current registered bull is also a half brother to my former registered bull. They have 9126J, 3008 blood in their pedigree and are working well with a few of my target genetics commercial cows.

By retaining a bull calf each year I can also put the bull calf and my registered bull in a pasture over the ridge and they keep each other company from when I pull the bulls in December to bull-in time in June. Outwintering in WI everybody needs buddy!

Once I reach my target herd of pure Hereford cows I may consider trying another breed bull. However there is much more to a bull than hide color, especially in a small rotational grazing system where the bull is often an arm's length away during paddock changes and facilities are very limited. The ability to calve unassisted out in the pasture is a primary concern as I am often away from the herd at calving time. I'm not sure using a different breed bull is worth the risk, especially since I don't care about a hide color price difference at the sale barn.

Another difference between our systems is that while my cattle habit does look like a "hobby" and is in the expansion stage now, I do have a business plan and plan to turn a profit with a positive ROI.

Good luck to you.

Jim

 

[robert]

The funniest thing I saw was after the first xbred was born, the other cows acted spooked, like when a dog is in the field. I know cows are supposed to be color blind but I wonder if they could see it was different and thought it was a dog. They got over it, but it was strange for a week or so.

we saw the same thing the first time we had smoky calves out of black cows, all they'd ever seen was little black babies then these grey things hit the ground and it was like a coyote in the lot, we ended up sorting the char bred ones out til the calves were born and a week or two old, after the other cows had seen em over the fence for a while they were fine. One of the worst cows for attacking the smokies had one of her own and was fine with it! Go figure

On those hereford cows go angus, black or red doesn't matter, everyone loves a baldie calf! Harder on fences is propaganda bs from the AHA, they should know better but I guess can't help themselves..............

 

[-SCattle]

The Charolais bull is my pick. in our operation we dont keep up with carcass traits but the cross makes for good females and good growing steers. The angus may be better for carcass but the only fence trouble I've ever had with angus is the older bulls

 

[salebarn junkie]

A clean up bull on 4 or 5 cows is a huge money loser. I think you should look into renting one from a neighbor

 

[pdfangus]

the docility epd in the angus breed is working pretty well for me.....
I am not sure what other breeds might have something similar.....
My angus bulls have always been quiet and managable. they usually have an electric wire about 36 inches high around their lots....
The two bull calves (yearlings now) I have by CC&7 are so quiet that I have to push em out of my way....
my limited experience with my neighbsrs red angus tell me that the cows might be a bit quieter but the bulls seem to be just like my bulls....
Having said all that .....it is my opinion that cattle very much reflect the disposition of the person who is the primary custodian of them. When you go to buy a bull....evaluate the approachability of the cow herd the bull came from....I would expect to be able to walk through the bulls without fearing for my life. if they are upheaded and snorty go somewhwere else. That never gets better with love and attention.

if dealing with angus breeders ask them to show you the epd profile and look at the DOC EPD.....nothing is 100% accurate and if you are constantly swatting with a stick and yelling they will all be wild but this docility things seems to be much more accurate than carcass epds.