hybrid vigor - how much is too much.

[cypressfarms]

A recent post asking people to name their favorite cross.

I, ofcourse the everpresent smart alec,I responded with a mixture of angus, brahman, hereford, and shorthorn. I think I called it an angusmaster.

My question to everyone is where does hybrid vigor end and mongrels start? Is there a point of diminishing returns with crossbreeding?

With all of the choices to us cattle farmers today, there's some really wild potential out there for crosses. It is conceivable to have a calf that is part british, part continental, and part indicus. Hell, I have some now.

So would it be worthwhile to try and create these "super calves", or do we face other risks by doing this?

 

[Brandonm2]

I am a big heterosis guy; but you aren't going to GET that much increased performance by adding more and more breeds.

According to this link UG gave us....
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/papers/composites.html

You get a 16% increase in weaning wt (per cow exposed) with a 2 breed rotational cross system at equilibrium.
By using three breeds you can bump that up to 20%.
By using a two breed rotational cross breeding system AND a terminal breed (the rototerminal system) you can get a 21% improvement over straightbreeding.
IF you really want to maximize what you can get out of your herd purchasing F1cross females and using a terminal sire on them will get you a 23-28% increase in weaning wts (per cow exposed). Using a two breed composite is a 12% increase. A three breed composite is a 15% increase and a 4 breed composite is a 17% increase. By rotating F1 bulls (4 different breeds) you can get up to 19% increase over a purebreeder.

The more breeds you add, the more variability in your calf crop, and you get to a point of diminishing returns. In a 5 breed rotational crossing system you would have heifers that are ~51% breed A; 26% breed B; 13% breed C; 7% breed D; 3% breed E and they you would breeding them to breed E and you would have mature cows with those numbers completely reversed and everything in between. In short it would be a mess

 

[BRG]

Yes we all sell by the pound and the more weight you have the better, but. That isn't the whole game, just part of it. You need to have uniformity to be able to get a good price when you sell. We are getting to a period where the industry is demanding certain criterias. I see it all the time, if you have a big group of same weight cattle and they are 1 color(doesn't matter which color) you will get a big premium over a smaller group or a group or of several different colors, in fact most barns sort for color any more. Then we get to the cow. If we have a bunch of cows with a whole bunch of exotic breeds in the mix your cows will get very big. The bigger the cow the more they eat. I have neighbors that have Limi, Char, and Gelb, in their cows along with Red and Black Angus and the cows are 1600lbs+. They eat way to much to afford to keep around. I guess these girls wean off bigger calves from the high bred vigor but I know their is a point where it will cost you. I think a 2 cross is about as good as it gets, and I would never use a composite bull to do this because you loose most of the heterosis from the first cross.

 

[cypressfarms]

Just wanted to hear some replies. With all of the breeds to choose from, it's getting amazing what can be done.

I agree totally with a uniform calf crop, color included.

I'm toying with the idea of using an angus or angus plus on beefmaster cows. Even though about using a semiangus bull on beefmaster cows. I've seen some nice semiangus bulls, but that would throw the angus content way below what I would want. The main point I wanted was to keep the angus blood at least 50%, while having the rest a mixture of breeds that would suit my area and provide growth (Brahman, simi, hereford,etc.) This would give me a uniform calf crop, with enough angus blood, and they would be black. (assuming using an angus bull or angus plus bull).

 

[dun]

In some cases it doesn;t matter how many breeds are thrown in, they're still mongrels. A crappy pure bred cow bred to a crappy purebred bull of another breed may not be legitimatly referred to as mongrels, but they're the same thing in reality, crappy calves.

dun

 

[cypressfarms]

In some cases it doesn;t matter how many breeds are thrown in, they're still mongrels. A crappy pure bred cow bred to a crappy purebred bull of another breed may not be legitimatly referred to as mongrels, but they're the same thing in reality, crappy calves.

dun

No doubt about that. Not to bash registered cattle, but I can't tell you how many times registered cattle don't look/produce as good as commercial. Registered only tells me that they have a piece of paper telling me that there an angus, etc.

I would still cull heavy any only keep the best, but I'm thinking along the lines of adding blood of differering breeds while still keeping quality and 1/2 angus blood, and black.

 

[andybob]

I would agree that the first cross put to a terminal sire is the best option, too many breeds also add a management burden.
I bred pure because of the extreme conditions on my farm, I produced some F1 Tuli/Siimmental hiefers for a customer who used Angus as the terminal sire for a premium beef contract.
Friends in South Africa do a three way rotational cross;Brahman,simmental/Red Angus semen or sussex follow up bulls which seems to maximise hybrid vigour without being too complicated. Their vet maintains that his own pure Bonsmara herd equals their indices without the benefit of heterosis,(They are on the same national performance testing scheme).Too many breeds however always seem to end up not performing to expectations,and lacking uniformity, it is better as always,to keep it simple.

 

[buckaroo_bif]

different strokes for different folks it all boils down to which you take pride in.
mine will ALL be black crossed with angus.
bif

 

[Wilson_Cattle_Company]

different strokes for different folks it all boils down to which you take pride in.
mine will ALL be black crossed with angus.
bif

;-)

 

[J. T.]

I follow the KISS philosophy in most all matters of life. That's Keep It Simple, Stupid. My humble opinion is that there are a few breeds that can actually contribute to the US beef industry. I believe we already have the ingredients necessary to produce "super calves". Of course, the type of cattle being produced depends on the market in which they are intended. If someone wants to produce calves that will all be destined for slaughter, using a crossbred cow bred to a Continental bull might be the way to go. If producing replacement females is the goal, using straight British (Hereford x Angus) or British X Brahman breeding would be a good choice. All breeds have something that they can bring to the table, but there are a few tried and true breeds that have proven themselves over and over for decades and even centuries. Using the genetics from these breeds can produce the type of cattle for a particular market if thought and planning go into the breeding and you have a goal in mind of what the end product should be.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

my way of thinking may be way off but to me a 50/50 split of two animals that compliment each followed by a third cross resulting in a calf that shows the benefit of the first cross. after you get to that point its time to start over :hat: