How much milk is enough and not too much for your environment

[hornedfrogbbq]

Many of the bulls that are recommended on here we will immediately not use because they don't fit our milk parameters. For us, in central Texas and the specific land we have (from rocky hilltop to lush river bottom) we keep a range of 20 on the low-end to 30 on the high end. We'll drift a bit higher than that now as several of the bulls we have used in the past have drifted lower (Bruiser being one of them). We need to make sure there is enough milk because we retain heifers.

What about you all? What is the sweet spot and why? When will you drift above or below to go pick up a bloodline or traits?

 

[VaCowman]

Our operation seems to prefer milk epd's in the mid 20's. I would selectively mate a ~30 milk epd sire to capture some bloodlines, but wouldn't use over the entire herd. Like you, I think Bruiser could work for us on some of the heavier milking cows, but certainly wouldn't use him over the entire herd. We used Impression selectively a few years ago, his milk is at 18 right now and I'd say he moderated some of the higher milking cows he was bred to, but they are FAR from dry...most are optimal. I think a bull like Hoover Dam (rest his soul) was about the best cow maker we have used. 7229 has done well for us too, and has not noticeably affected milk much (if any). I think a 24-27 is the sweet spot for forage based operations in VA.

 

[NEFarmwife]

My "daddy issues" came back with a genomic milk of 46 but EN is like -3.

I've never ever seen milk that high. We prefer mid 20s.

 

[elkwc]

As a commercial breeder I have found with Angus and Hereford there is no sweet spot. I have seen females with a milk EPD of 9 with a great udder and wean calves over 700 with no creep. Have a cow with a 23 index that stunts her calves. She will leave soon. Have a cow with a 27 index that 2-3 calves suck every year that milks heavier than I desire and one with a 35 index that milks what I call ideal. So have came to the conclusion that my local weather person's predictions are more accurate than the current milk EPD's.

 

[CreekAngus]

As a commercial breeder I have found with Angus and Hereford there is no sweet spot. I have seen females with a milk EPD of 9 with a great udder and wean calves over 700 with no creep. Have a cow with a 23 index that stunts her calves. She will leave soon. Have a cow with a 27 index that 2-3 calves suck every year that milks heavier than I desire and one with a 35 index that milks what I call ideal. So have came to the conclusion that my local weather person's predictions are accurate than the current milk EPD's.

That's my conclusion as well, until we start running them into milk parlors, getting actual pounds and fat, it's a guess, based on other epd's.

 

[T & B farms]

I agree with above. I try to avoid the extremes, but weigh very little on the milk epd. Haven't noticed much difference in daughters from sires with a 16 to a 30 milk epd.
From what I've noticed the dam has a lot more to do with heritability of milk production.

 

[elkwc]

I agree with above. I try to avoid the extremes, but weigh very little on the milk epd. Haven't noticed much difference in daughters from sires with a 16 to a 30 milk epd.
From what I've noticed the dam has a lot more to do with heritability of milk production.

I'm a lot the same. I look at the actual WW's of a dams progeny. That tells me a lot about how she milks

 

[wbvs58]

That is how they calculate the milk EPD, from the weaning weight of their progeny.

Ken

 

[Ebenezer]

Do you set your top milk EPD by targeting 90% breed back or ____?

 

[elkwc]

That is how they calculate the milk EPD, from the weaning weight of their progeny.

Ken

Ken if they used weaning weights a cow that has raised 7 calves(4 bulls all over 700 lbs& 3 hfrs all 650 or over) no creep wouldn't have a milk EPD of 9. I have seen several instances. I have been told numerous stories of how they
form these predictions. Regardless of how they figure them they worthless currently.

 

[wbvs58]

That is how they calculate the milk EPD, from the weaning weight of their progeny.

Ken

Ken if they used weaning weights a cow that has raised 7 calves(4 bulls all over 700 lbs& 3 hfrs all 650 or over) no creep wouldn't have a milk EPD of 9. I have seen several instances. I have been told numerous stories of how they
form these predictions. Regardless of how they figure them they worthless currently.

Elk, the example you gave would depend on how much the weaning weights were above the rest of the cows in her management group. If significantly above the rest in a large group of cows there would be movement of the EPD. If it was only a small group of cows and not much above average then the number would not move much if at all from what she inherited.

This link explains it fairly well foe our EBV's.
http://breedplan.une.edu.au/tips/Understanding%20Milk%20EBVs.pdf

 

[elkwc]

That is how they calculate the milk EPD, from the weaning weight of their progeny.

Ken

Ken if they used weaning weights a cow that has raised 7 calves(4 bulls all over 700 lbs& 3 hfrs all 650 or over) no creep wouldn't have a milk EPD of 9. I have seen several instances. I have been told numerous stories of how they
form these predictions. Regardless of how they figure them they worthless currently.

Elk, the example you gave would depend on how much the weaning weights were above the rest of the cows in her management group. If significantly above the rest in a large group of cows there would be movement of the EPD. If it was only a small group of cows and not much above average then the number would not move much if at all from what she inherited.

This link explains it fairly well foe our EBV's.
http://breedplan.une.edu.au/tips/Understanding%20Milk%20EBVs.pdf

The breeder in this case said he was told by the Angus office it is because of her old bloodlines. She is the top performing cow in his herd. He said he has cows with indexes in the 30's that don't raise comparable calves. Regardless of the reason it shows the inaccuracy of the current EPD's. The top commercial breeders have also. I was interested in a son of hers. He brought 10,000 from a commercial breeder. His WW & YW indexes were low also again supposedly because of old bloodlines. Actual numbers don't lie like pencil whipped predictions do.

 

[wbvs58]

Elk, that is the problem. Older genetics may have had the top EPD's of their time however with continual chasing of numbers the current cows have much improved numbers so progeny of these older genetics start off on a low base and it is hard to improve the numbers just on performance recording. I do not believe that the improved numbers mean actual genetic gain. Numbers increase at a far greater rate than the actual genetic gain as you are seeing here. The older bloodlines need to be mated to modern genetics to have a chance of improving the numbers in the offspring. Have you tried doing genomics on her ?

The system of EPD's/EBv's is far from perfect but I think it has greatly contributed to the developing of the various breeds. Some breeders rely on it more than others, some buyers rely on it more than others, it is what we have to deal with. It is evolving though and quick to pick up on change.

Ken

 

[hornedfrogbbq]

There is some "gaming" of the system. I think the numbers race has everyone using their latest heifers with the best numbers and pushing them with sires for better numbers. SAV and a handful of others focus on decade plus aged cows and longevity in the herd. That matters to those of us on the commercial side.

It is almost the opposite on the seed/bull seller side. Those older cows without newer, ramped up numbers will have calves with lower numbers. You all are on a treadmill!

 

[wbvs58]

There is some "gaming" of the system. I think the numbers race has everyone using their latest heifers with the best numbers and pushing them with sires for better numbers. SAV and a handful of others focus on decade plus aged cows and longevity in the herd. That matters to those of us on the commercial side.

It is almost the opposite on the seed/bull seller side. Those older cows without newer, ramped up numbers will have calves with lower numbers. You all are on a treadmill!

Yes, I think the numbers should be watched but not get obsessed with them.

Ken

 

[BFE]

Going to open this back up. I'm not very knowledgeable on epd's. Looking at some reg. Angus cows, all their milk #'s in the high thirties. I'm concerned they will be too high maintenance for what I want so I'll ask, what are some cow families to look for or stay away from? Fescue tolerance is a must.

 

[W.B.]

My response would be environment trumps all else and how much are you willing to supplement. Here a 15 to 25 milk epd on an Angus cow is sure enough. Of the AI sired cows on this operation the one that have stayed the best are my Connealy Mentor daughters and sits at 20 milk.

 

[76 Bar]

From the AAA assn. Web site:

https://www.angus.org/Performance/OptimalMilk/OptimalMilkLinks.aspx?LK=BgAAAN9FEJxv1YfTK1YRvQ9dJ98=

 

[FungusProudKY31]

MM is not just milk.

 

[kcarr716]

My oldest cows are 9 and 10 years old, my herd started with bred heifers from when basin abgus dispersed and they were all defect carriers that have been shuffled out of the herd so these oldest cows have been here from our start. The 4 best among them have milk epds of 36, 36, 32, and 28. Aside from one slough there has been 1 3rd cycle calf and 1 2nd cycle calf and the other 30 have been AI calves so I would say they have bred up fine with some pretty high milk epds