How big is to big?

[JHH]

I just got done reading a sale flyer for an upcoming bull sale and there are several 7 to almost 8 frame bulls for sale. Only 3 or 4 5.5 frame. I personally feel 7 is to big. There is one 8.1 frame in the sale.

While I havent seen these bulls I would bet the top seller will be a 7 frame bull. What do you consider to big. I think these big bulls will completly fall apart this summer breeding cows. Thoughts on this?

 

[Aaron]

I just got done reading a sale flyer for an upcoming bull sale and there are several 7 to almost 8 frame bulls for sale. Only 3 or 4 5.5 frame. I personally feel 7 is to big. There is one 8.1 frame in the sale.

While I havent seen these bulls I would bet the top seller will be a 7 frame bull. What do you consider to big. I think these big bulls will completly fall apart this summer breeding cows. Thoughts on this?

Frame 8 is too big for me. Willing to use a frame 7 every once in a while on mature cows, but 6 is pretty much my top score. Have used frame 8 and 9 through A.I. in the past and they are way too big. :cowboy:

 

[Brandonm22]

The big bull won't fall apart if his owner understands that the larger the animal the greater the maintenance requirements and adjusts his nutrition program to that reality. I don't like feeding anything out of a sack; but that is preferable to the animal suffering.

 

[Keren]

our biggest are 7 frame, cows and one bull. over 7 frame we move them on. but to me, 7 frame is not that extreme, 8 is. but then, we tend to have bigger cattle here than you guys do. 5.5 here would also be moved on, I want my cattle between 6.4 and 7.

 

[cfpinz]

What breed?

I've got a 7 frame balancer bull, his muscle development is disappointing compared to his frame growth. It's going to be interesting to see some of his calves. My ideal bull is around 5.5-6.2, the 7 frame was in my price range when I needed one, the others were not.

 

[dun]

A lot depends on your area. When we ran cattle in the desert canyons we wanted bulls with a lot of leg so they could cover the country, aorund here I'll use a 6.5 but prefer 5.5 - 6

 

[JHH]

What breed?

I've got a 7 frame balancer bull, his muscle development is disappointing compared to his frame growth. It's going to be interesting to see some of his calves. My ideal bull is around 5.5-6.2, the 7 frame was in my price range when I needed one, the others were not.

The biggest 8.1 is a 3/4 simmental, the smallest hereford is a 6.2 but most are 7 frame

The smallest angus is 5.5 but there are only two that size. the others are between 6-6.9

No balancers this sale.

I think they are to big for me.A frame 5.5 hereford is roughly 54 inches at 21 months a frame 8 is 59 inches that is 5 inches of air between the belly and ground that isn't worth any thing. While 5 frame and smaller are probably to small I think 6 is big enough.

My friend just had his first A-I calf out of his belted galloways it was 18 inches tall mom is only 38 inches. Kind of cute but also not for me.

The big bull won't fall apart if his owner understands that the larger the animal the greater the maintenance requirements and adjusts his nutrition program to that reality. I don't like feeding anything out of a sack; but that is preferable to the animal suffering.

Kind of takes the profit out of it. I ask a similar question awhile back. ( What do you guys feed your bulls and how much) or something like that. the general concensuis was people dont. They get grass and hay and minerals. While this winter most would of been ahead to feed them something with the shape most cows and bulls are in around here. We ( rather I ) need to fit my cows to my environment. With that said 6 is big enough.I could show you a frame 8 angus that has competly fell apart this winter but for fear of the someone using the pic agaist the industry I will not. He has him in the feed lot with the steers now so he will be fine.

 

[JHH]

I just got done reading a sale flyer for an upcoming bull sale and there are several 7 to almost 8 frame bulls for sale. Only 3 or 4 5.5 frame. I personally feel 7 is to big. There is one 8.1 frame in the sale.

While I havent seen these bulls I would bet the top seller will be a 7 frame bull. What do you consider to big. I think these big bulls will completly fall apart this summer breeding cows. Thoughts on this?

Still think this is to big but will probably watch someone pay way to much for a 7 frame bull.

 

[Keren]

I think its important to note that not all of those big framed cattle are the type that need extra feeding. there are some that are very easy keeping.

I've posted pics of this cow before, she is 7 frame (might even be a little bigger) but probably the easiest keeping animal on the place. She feeds 4 + calves and stays in fat condition on pasture/hay only

On the opposite end of the scale is this girl, she's 6.5, probably our smallest. She doesnt foster calves like the other girl but she is always fat fat fat on nothing.

Both are the type we strive for.

I cant find the picture I wanted to put in, of a 6.8 frame girl we have. She doesnt get any supplement but she milks off her condition. Not as ideal as the other girls

 

[JHH]

Keren you definatly have some nice cattle. even though they are big. I just cant make that big a cow work here. I havent seen but a hand full that would. I still havent changed my mind 6 is big enough for me here.

 

[turning grass into beef]

This is a quote from our website. Take it for what it is worth.

"How big is big enough and when do our cattle get too big? These are questions that have been debated by a lot of producers in the last few years.

The simple answer is that your cattle should be as big as the FORAGE resource on your ranch can support. If your cows can maintain body condition, calve and breed back on the grass you can grow then your cows are not too big. On the other hand if you are supplementing cows with grain or other high-priced supplements to maintain production maybe you need to take a second look at what you are doing."

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

tgib - very well put!!!
We used to have 8-9 frame cows, 100% AI, 60 day calving, grass & hay only. If a cow can stay in that kind of program and stay in a good BCS, I don't care what SIZE she is, she is considered an easy keeper in my book.
We have downsized (which I love), the cows are frame 5.5 - 6.5.

 

[gberry]

It all depends how many head you want to run. We prefer running more smaller cows, but we could probably cut our numbers 30% and run larger cattle.

 

[alacattleman]

alot of commercial ranchers want a frame 7 bull.

 

[Jake]

6 frame is more than big enough for our operation. 5-5.5 frame is ideal.

And as far as matching size to resources. I'm with gberry if I had excellent forage I'd rather run 3 smaller cows that wean 3 500# calves as to run 2 larger cows that wean 2 600# calves. As far as my math adds up 1500# of calf is more than 1200# of calf. TO ME it's all about optimizing the production on your acres not simply maximizing your cow production so you have bragging rights at the coffee shop in the morning.

 

[Galloways1]

That is where the fun comes in being a seedstock producer. You have some customers that want to buy bulls to produce 1000 lb replacement females, and you have some customers that sell the calves off the cows and want their calves to be heavier than the neighbors. You have to have some that can do both.
Don't get me wrong, I have seen plenty of smaller framed cows that were more inefficient than their larger framed counterparts. These cows were only in production, because they were of the "right" frame size, not because of their production value.

 

[dun]

Talking weight OR frame and not both is pretty much a waste. We have some 6.5 cows that weight 1600s, not a lot of leg, wide and deep. Granted on our toxic fescue they only wean 750 lb calves. but those heaviier calves go to slaughter a lot sooner then the lighter ones so that's fewer dollars to spend on days on feed. We also had a 5 frame that weighed 1710 when we sent her to weigh cow heaven (prolapsed)

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Talking weight OR frame and not both is pretty much a waste. We have some 6.5 cows that weight 1600s, not a lot of leg, wide and deep. Granted on our toxic fescue they only wean 750 lb calves. but those heaviier calves go to slaughter a lot sooner then the lighter ones so that's fewer dollars to spend on days on feed. We also had a 5 frame that weighed 1710 when we sent her to weigh cow heaven (prolapsed)

We will all agree to disagree. I'm with Dun. No "air" under my cows, but they can easily run 1650# + (mature). They raise me money making calves. Bottom line is BOTTOM LINE!
Doesn't make any difference what you do or don't put into them, it's what you NET at the end.
My male CALVES sold last year (steers & 2 bulls) sold for an average of $1025. My cows can eat a lot of grass & hay, but I can guarantee you, they don't eat that much! And I won't put down what my heifer's average, but they do a lot better than the males. :banana:

 

[DOC HARRIS]

As usual on threads of this type we have "lurched" into a senseless discourse contrasting SIZE and PROFIT - to the total exclusion of 'weaning a higher percentage of the smaller cow's body weight', lighter calves being worth more per pound, running MORE momma cows per given acreage, and the fact that smaller cows return $70.00 - $80.00 more per cow per year, considering 'momma' SIZE alone.

There is more than sufficient evidence to prove, incontrovertibly, the undeniable credibility of "The SIZE Arguments", and to exclude specious rhetoric concerning same in the future. Nevertheless, I surmise that we will read and hear the same old trite expression "Well, the last time I looked, they were still paying by the pound"!

It is a simple exercise to bring to light the PROFIT facts! Just do it!

DOC HARRIS

 

[smnherf]

For me, frame is a pretty useless profit measurement especially when it is taken all by itself. It says very little about profit. Weight is a much better indicater. I have always lived by the concept that it doesn't necessarily matter how big they get it is how fast they can get there that makes a difference in profit. There are 5 and 6 frame cattle out there that will out gain the 8 and 9 frame cattle of yesterday.

Just my 2 cents worth.