horse schooling

[bward]

Anyone here use Parelli or Quantum Savvy techniques to school their horses?

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Nope...

IMO the Parelli, John Lyons, and all the other "showmen" (except perhaps Clinton Anderson) are emphasizing their "designer" products more than basic horse training...for a price...

Clinton Anderson seems to be down-to-earth in his approach without using all of those designer products & gimmicks.

All animal training is based on a time-honored behavioral principle of "positive reinforcement training" (aka "operant conditioning"). Nothing new in learning theory and principles. Psychological principles emphasized by B.F. Skinner and others earlier in the 20th century. Those animal trainers that claim they have a "new technique" are just re-naming techniques and "tools" to fit their paradigm and marketing plan.

In a nutshell: Operant conditioning = reinforce desirable behavior in increments (notion of "successive approximation")and do not reinforce (extinguish) undesirable behavior.

With cattle and horse training, it also has a lot to do with understanding the natural behavior of the animals and capitalizing on the positive aspects.

 

[kscowboy]

i like the parelli ground training sequences and i like Parelli's mantra of patience and absence of time schedule to learn a task , all of the packaged trainers are much the same though , IMO none of them has the total package to build a working , broke , horse and they are all more than willing to take alot of your money on a lot of really basic literature and videos , CD's special sticks etc

My arab was a "Parelli Trained " horse . The previous owner had spent a lot of money with a certified trainer. While the horse was a little arena wonder he was not worth a **** once outside the arena. I went back to ground zero with him and started setting goals in stages , some were behavior and some were tasks. i still do this with him today after five years as I/we add to his capabilities he's a fabulous horse . you can learn alot if you don't think you know it all and find folks who will share their training techniques with you.

 

[luvs2ride1979]

I'm with Bill on my opinion of most Clinicians out there. I have the book and dvd's from Dan Sumerel and have really enjoyed his methods. They are similar "natural" type work, but he has none of his own halters, saddles, ropes, or anything else to sell you. He shows you how to use your own equipment to get the job done .

He does like Dr Cook's bitless bridle (which I bought before he started promoting them, they're great!) and he likes Courbette saddles (good German made English riding saddles), but he doesn't push any of those products on you, and they're not featured in the DVDs I have.

http://sumereltraining.com

 

[smart_slider]

there are only a few guys i would really want to learn from. like Clinton, like the others' said, and Buck Breneman(sp?). i haven't seen a whole lot of Anderson, but i watched a few of Buck's tapes. it is amazing how quick the horses learn from him!

 

[ArrowHBrand]

I like Buck, but don't give a hoot for Clinton, IMO. We don't use any one person's technique, just positive reinforcement when they do something right, have the patience until they do what you ask, and love them. Want to be around them don't have a horse because it's "hip and cool". We've never had any problems with home trained horses, now horses that have come from somewhere else, now that's a whole other story.

 

[flaboy?]

IMHO, Perelli is a circus clown like some others out there selling good old honest horse sense.

I have yet to see anything really new out there. It is all the same stuff we have done with horses back as far as I can remember. It is the same old stuff mostly presented a different way.

Ask, Show, Tell...it don't any simpler than that.

 

[circlet]

if you don't count tom dorrance or ray hunt, then of all of the people who are big names or "known'', i'd say Curt Pate beats them all hands down. i think Chris Cox also has some very good things to teach. i compare parelli to a traveling tent revivial. i've never seen buck branaman, but people i respect think he's very very good and very down to earth in his approach to the horses and people. as far as the guy with the accent, i can take him or leave him as far as horsemanship, and i've never talked to him, but i know a guy who was a few feet away from him backstage and what he saw and heard was enough to keep me sour on him for a good long time, and why in the world does he endorse shock collars?!?! :?:

for a name none of you have ever heard of, there's a guy from the sandhills of nebraska named kevin wescott who knew tom dorrance and learned from him. i know him personally and admittedly he's a friend of mine, but in all my years, i've never seen or known anyone who is close to kevin when it comes to dealing with horses.

 

[flaboy?]

Circlet, got two horses that don't play well in stalls next to one another? Just curious, how would you make them play nice? This is a very good place to use a shock collar IMHO. The same could be said for trailer enemies.

 

[circlet]

to be perfectly blunt flaboy?, i've been fortunate enough that i haven't ever experienced that kind of real rough stuff by any horses i've been around - other than typical herd positioning - so quite frankly, i don't have a great answer to that question, i'd be looking for advice from somone if i had that problem. you might be 100% correct about the shock collar, i really can't argue the point, because i'd just be arguing for argument's sake, which isn't my style, and i'm not a touchy-feely type about horses either, so if something strict or severe is needed then it's needed... i guess my point was more that the australian guy seems to be willing to put his name on anything and everything, and in my opinion he's not the best teacher/trainer by a long shot - people like the accent!

 

[clampitt]

There are two books and both are very old I have one and have had access to the other.When Ray Hunt came out with all this in the early 80's or so I had never seen any thing like it and He tought to start colts with no bridle or halter nothing on them at all.Ray Davis wrote for the Western Horseman for nearly 30yrs.Ray wrote training stories and knew all the old time hands and knew most very well.Ray has been dead about ten yrs now I was a pall bearer at his funeral.He came by my house one day and I said something about the Ray Hunt thing I had heard about it and was wondering how it worked.He just laughted we visited a while and he went home.In a couple of days he came over and had a book.Gave it to me.It was written in 1878.by a man named Dennis Magner,The Classic Encyclopedia of The Horse.He went all over the east coast giving CLINICS on problem horses and breaking horses sound familiar.Every thing these men were doing now is in this book.It is changed to fit the modern equipment and more western than English type.I still have the book he gave it to me.He had two.I have never found another one any where.The other one is the ARMY FIELD MANUEL BEFORE,1918.So that kinda put a damper on that.Ray Hunt was just starting out and was doing a clinic at Wichita Falls back then at the old 4H building.And Ray being who he was got a free ticket to go see and hopefully would do a story on him.They have a little round pen set up and he is going through all the colt starting thing with the flag on a stick and all the other stuff gets the grass fed not very strong and big two year olds going along fine they give out pretty quick.On Sunday he would let some one bring theirs for him to start.Big mistake.Ray said I have no idea how these kids got this stud in the trailer at all.A couple about 20's had bought a stud and raised him in the back yard and had him so spoild he was three and had never had a hand on him and had run them out of the pen several times and was just like a caged tiger.Mr. Hunt said he could have him riding noooo problem.Well by the time the stud takes his little flagstickdeal away form him and trees him.He gives up and gives every one their money back and Ray didn't do a story.after I read the book and met some really good hands and worked for them four as a matter of fact.Every thing that was in the book they already did and none of them had ever been to a clinic.It is really true as in Ecc.The Bible.Soloman. says there is nothing new under the sun.They have there place I think but what I have seen in people that have attended one or more ,clinics, for some reason they know everything there is to know and have only owned or ridden one horse.Give's people a false sence on knowledge.

 

[flaboy?]

to be perfectly blunt flaboy?, i've been fortunate enough that i haven't ever experienced that kind of real rough stuff by any horses i've been around - other than typical herd positioning - so quite frankly, i don't have a great answer to that question, i'd be looking for advice from somone if i had that problem. you might be 100% correct about the shock collar, i really can't argue the point, because i'd just be arguing for argument's sake, which isn't my style, and i'm not a touchy-feely type about horses either, so if something strict or severe is needed then it's needed... i guess my point was more that the australian guy seems to be willing to put his name on anything and everything, and in my opinion he's not the best teacher/trainer by a long shot - people like the accent!

I have never used one myself but I recently was at very respected trainers place here. I saw him grab a collar and go into a stall as I arrived. He put it on a mare that would try to tear the walls of the stall down if a horse was beside her and she could see it. It took two mild jolts and she started ignoring the horse beside her. I went back a week later and he had horses on either side of her and she didn't bother them. He told me he doesn't like to use it but in some cases it works wonders.

Having seen it used properly for certain cases, I think it is a good tool. I would never advocate the use of it for normal behavior horses though.

 

[circlet]

that's interesting.

ever since you brought up the question of bad stall mates or trailer mates i've been thinking and thinking about it! i wonder what other solutions people would come up with? i'd probably be at a loss for a real clever idea.

i was around a guy from arizona one day who's basic remedy for any horse with bigger problems is to lay them down and tie them up and leave them there for however long he feels like leaving them there. he swears by it.

 

[flaboy?]

The problem I have with laying them down is they don't have a clue as to why you laid them down. They don't understand what they did wrong.

 

[circlet]

The problem I have with laying them down is they don't have a clue as to why you laid them down. They don't understand what they did wrong.

that's kind of the impression i get as well.

i can understand why someone might want to lay a horse down as a trust builder. it may not work, but i see the reasoning in that at least. but i don't understand the tying them down and leaving them. as i've said before, i'm really not touchy-feely with horses, and if you can correct a dangerous problem with this method i'd be all for it, i just tend to think it wouldn't really do much? but, after all these years, i'd still say on a scale of 1-10 in horse knowledge i'm about a 2, so i'm not gonna spout off too much!

 

[flaboy?]

Not to worry, I forgot everything I knew and had to start over. :shock:

 

[flyingf1]

Nope...

IMO the Parelli, John Lyons, and all the other "showmen" (except perhaps Clinton Anderson) are emphasizing their "designer" products more than basic horse training...for a price...

Clinton Anderson seems to be down-to-earth in his approach without using all of those designer products & gimmicks.

All animal training is based on a time-honored behavioral principle of "positive reinforcement training" (aka "operant conditioning"). Nothing new in learning theory and principles. Psychological principles emphasized by B.F. Skinner and others earlier in the 20th century. Those animal trainers that claim they have a "new technique" are just re-naming techniques and "tools" to fit their paradigm and marketing plan.

In a nutshell: Operant conditioning = reinforce desirable behavior in increments (notion of "successive approximation")and do not reinforce (extinguish) undesirable behavior.

With cattle and horse training, it also has a lot to do with understanding the natural behavior of the animals and capitalizing on the positive aspects.

Operant conditioning is Skinnerian for wet saddle pads. I never learned anything about horses from Clinicians or books. At first I just wanted to cut, and didn't really learn anything from anyone. I agree that understanding natural behavior of the animal is essential, to take it a step further, it is really about feel. Feel is not something you learn from someone else, and until you get it, you will miss alot of good advice that you are simply not ready to hear. The only way is to ride as much as you can, people will tell you that you are screwing up your horse, and that may be true, but most horses will come back if you are trying to help them instead of punishing them. Buster said it best "think more about teaching a horse than training him"

 

[clampitt]

F1,Good one.You bet.Show a horse what to do and get out of his way.
The only problem to day is there are fewer and fewer horseman around that had to make it work or not eat.We live in a throw away age now.And most people relate to two things,Autos and Kitchen appliances.Horse shoesing by and large is just changing tires.Few shoers actually know about anatamy and function and mechanics of a horses foot and leg.
And for the most part the trainers of today run and assembly line operation.I know I worked for two of them and you run em through.The good ones will come to the top and the others you junk.
Every thing I say I say form first hand experience.I have been to four finals.I have had horses we raised and trained in the PRCA and WPRA standings.All the youth rodeo assn.s in N.Tx and W.Tx and Ok.AQHA ROM,Finalist in three events Calf Roping, Barrel Race.Breakaway.Worked for two big time cutters Bill Freeman,Jim Lee.World champ CR Jr.Garrison,World champ reiner.Shorty Russell.
I do believe there is some good information on some of the videos.But like I said from what I see they give the person a false sence of knowledge.You have to spend time and lots of it on one.And feel is not something you can learn from clinic.
People say my horse is doing this or that today well he didn;t just start today he has been telling you he was headed in that direction for several days.And you didn't listen to what he said or feel the difference.Some times all it starts with is a drop of the ear or a look in his eye a shake of his head and not shaking a fly off.But that wasnt in the video or the book.Put a different bit on him and ride him off a little ways and say this wont work.
And all you did was stop him easy and back him up he was a bit stiff or maby just didnt move right with it.
My pet peeeve I gess is a nice horse trying and the rider wont let him alone and let him do his job and then for their benifit or their lack of confidence,they just keep working him and working him untill he get eneough and runs off or sulls up.Knowing when to quit is just as important as knowing what to do.And they never quit pulling on ones head.
I.m sure this wont go over very well.Cause it aint clinically proven.Sorry if I have offended anyone but do stop and think about what I said.

 

[circlet]

[/quote] it is really about feel. Feel is not something you learn from someone else, and until you get it, you will miss alot of good advice that you are simply not ready to hear. The only way is to ride as much as you can [/quote]

in my opinion, this is the most relevent and accurate statement in this whole thread.

 

[ArrowHBrand]

Nope...

IMO the Parelli, John Lyons, and all the other "showmen" (except perhaps Clinton Anderson) are emphasizing their "designer" products more than basic horse training...for a price...

Clinton Anderson seems to be down-to-earth in his approach without using all of those designer products & gimmicks.

I can't agree with you on this one RA Bill. Just the other day we got a Clinton Anderson product catalog in the mail and on the back cover he was selling his ranch. We've never studied a certain type of trainer, just studied horses and how they learn and went from there. We've had some good horses and we've had some great ones so we must be doing something right.