Horned and Polled

[HerefordSire]

I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

I could very well be wrong here, but I don't think so. Regardless of whether the Hereford in question is polled or horned, it is still a Hereford. To get hybrid(sp?) vigor, you need to use two different breeds.

Thinking out loud without any proof...

Heterosis via inbreed outcross or linecross and inbreeding depression are quantitative and inversely proportional. It is not a boolean, on or off switch. The magnitudes are much lower within breed, but they are certainly present.

 

[Herefords.US]

Thinking out loud without any proof...

Heterosis via inbreed outcross or linecross and inbreeding depression are quantitative and inversely proportional. It is not a boolean, on or off switch. The magnitudes are much lower within breed, but they are certainly present.

HS, your thinking is generally correct. As long as I've been involved with Hereford cattle, approaching 40 years now, there has been a constant flow of advertising in the Hereford Journal (Hereford World) where a breeder has a bull of bloodlines that aren't in the "mainstream", proclaiming his ability to be a good "outcross" sire(within breed). Common sense tells me that if there was absolutely NO benefit of using such bulls, within breed, the advertising of them as such would have ceased long ago.

With the recent chase for frame, growth, and constantly higher growth EPDs, a lot of the Hereford "mainstream" cattle have become so mongrelized that any effect of an "outcross" sire can have on them is greatly diminished.

George

 

[HerefordSire]

Thinking out loud without any proof...

Heterosis via inbreed outcross or linecross and inbreeding depression are quantitative and inversely proportional. It is not a boolean, on or off switch. The magnitudes are much lower within breed, but they are certainly present.

HS, your thinking is generally correct. As long as I've been involved with Hereford cattle, approaching 40 years now, there has been a constant flow of advertising in the Hereford Journal (Hereford World) where a breeder has a bull of bloodlines that aren't in the "mainstream", proclaiming his ability to be a good "outcross" sire(within breed). Common sense tells me that if there was absolutely NO benefit of using such bulls, within breed, the advertising of them as such would have ceased long ago.

With the recent chase for frame, growth, and constantly higher growth EPDs, a lot of the Hereford "mainstream" cattle have become so mongrelized that any effect of an "outcross" sire can have on them is greatly diminished.

George

Glad we agree G.

I think the first place it will show up is the open cow percentage. Another place it will show up is the longevity of calves at weaning percentage.

 

[Brandonm22]

With the recent chase for frame, growth, and constantly higher growth EPDs, a lot of the Hereford "mainstream" cattle have become so mongrelized that any effect of an "outcross" sire can have on them is greatly diminished.

George

I think you are right. Back when everybody down here was breeding Victor cattle, they could breed them to something like Keynote and really get impressive performance from that calf crop (part of that was outcrossing and part of that was just Keynote). Or when Frank Felton added the influence of OXH Domino 7002 to his lines I suspect there was a noticable effect. I am not knocking them but a lot of reg. polled cattle today have Remitall, Victor, 774, 517, and/or even Line Ones in the last three generations. When there is 3 or 4 widely different lines in a cow I doubt there is any outcross effect possible there no matter what Hereford bull you breed her too..........Of course all of this is just spectulation on our part unless somebody can actually dig up some research somewhere.

 

[smnherf]

Thinking out loud without any proof...

Heterosis via inbreed outcross or linecross and inbreeding depression are quantitative and inversely proportional. It is not a boolean, on or off switch. The magnitudes are much lower within breed, but they are certainly present.

HS, your thinking is generally correct. As long as I've been involved with Hereford cattle, approaching 40 years now, there has been a constant flow of advertising in the Hereford Journal (Hereford World) where a breeder has a bull of bloodlines that aren't in the "mainstream", proclaiming his ability to be a good "outcross" sire(within breed). Common sense tells me that if there was absolutely NO benefit of using such bulls, within breed, the advertising of them as such would have ceased long ago.

With the recent chase for frame, growth, and constantly higher growth EPDs, a lot of the Hereford "mainstream" cattle have become so mongrelized that any effect of an "outcross" sire can have on them is greatly diminished.

George

I agree with both of you, but is the desire for breeders for an outcross bull a result from the fear of linebreeding these mainstream cattle and the negatives they would have to deal with? I get alot of catalogs here this time of year and essentially they are all the same breeding. Keynote, Online, Boomer, P606 with a few different maternal sires mixed in to various degrees.

What would a total outcross sire to these cattle be worth if he would sire comparable phenotype to them? A lot of the big marketers will not linebreed these cattle.

Brian

 

[Brandonm22]

I agree with both of you, but is the desire for breeders for an outcross bull a result from the fear of linebreeding these mainstream cattle and the negatives they would have to deal with? I get alot of catalogs here this time of year and essentially they are all the same breeding. Keynote, Online, Boomer, P606 with a few different maternal sires mixed in to various degrees.

What would a total outcross sire to these cattle be worth if he would sire comparable phenotype to them? A lot of the big marketers will not linebreed these cattle.

Brian

Linebreeding doesn't gain them anything. Most people are either selling show winning phenotype, popular pedigrees, or they are selling EPDs or performance. There is always a new bull winning a show, a new trait leader, a new sire being heavily promoted everyone wants too sample.

 

[HerefordSire]

I agree with both of you, but is the desire for breeders for an outcross bull a result from the fear of linebreeding these mainstream cattle and the negatives they would have to deal with? I get alot of catalogs here this time of year and essentially they are all the same breeding. Keynote, Online, Boomer, P606 with a few different maternal sires mixed in to various degrees.

What would a total outcross sire to these cattle be worth if he would sire comparable phenotype to them? A lot of the big marketers will not linebreed these cattle.

Brian

(1) For non-terminal sires, new outcross blood in the herd may represent a change of strategy and may not be related to fear.

(2) I would think a total outcross could generate additional gross income of about 10% over and beyond the average at the expense of a more inconsistent product. The net difference is likely to approach zero.

 

[rocket2222]

I think recent test done at Circle A ranch shows there are some long term advantages to cross breeding and heterosis through the longevity and the higher conception rates of the F1 females, but, the short term explosive gains in growth normally associated with heterosis just don't appear to be that substanual, a 0.15 lb per day gain on average, which amounted to a 13 lb average heavier carcass is not exactly mind blowing. That smaller figure would also lead me to believe that in some cases straight breds actually out gained the F1 cross. You would have to conclude, if you have any faith in the test/study at Circle A, that any direct performance gains from breeding inbreed outcross genetics would be minimal at best, and is just a marketing ploy to sell genetics out side of mainstream for an extra dollar, that nobody was using or wanted in the first place.