Horned and Polled

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j4rcattle

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I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?
 

novaman

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Why cross a horned animal to polled? You are going to have a bunch of carriers for the horn gene. Most people are trying to remove horns from their genetic pools. Just my thoughts.
 

Willow Springs

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I've wondered the same thing when using some of the overseas Angus (no NA genetics in them) on North American Anugus genetics; or using Black Angus on Red Angus. I did both this year. In theory I thought there should be an effect, but I did read a geneticist saying somewhere that there would be very little increased vigour. If I remember correctly the reasoning went something like this; even though the populations followed different paths, they all started from the same gene pool, so they should still carry all the same genes just maybe in different combinations. Even British on British has less hybrd vigour than British on continental, again due to the similarity in genetic base.
 

Baldie Maker

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I'm pretty sure there will be no hybrid vigor when you cross horned animals onto polled ones. This cross is essentially the same as using red angus on black angus: both are the same species, but deveiate (sp?) in color. Do you know what i'm getting at? You may get a small amount if you use a L1 bull, but i'm not 100% sure about that....
 

Hereford76

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Baldie Maker":3et4zvxq said:
I'm pretty sure there will be no hybrid vigor when you cross horned animals onto polled ones. This cross is essentially the same as using red angus on black angus

hmmm?? seems like the aaa was saying something different a few years back. something to the effect that there is enough different blood within the breed to get the same vigor you would crossbreeding. i wonder which time they were lying - back when they were promoting hybrid vigor to sell bulls or now. either that or they were referring to all the other breeds that now make up an angus.
 

dun

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Hereford76":2f04t9la said:
Baldie Maker":2f04t9la said:
I'm pretty sure there will be no hybrid vigor when you cross horned animals onto polled ones. This cross is essentially the same as using red angus on black angus

hmmm?? seems like the aaa was saying something different a few years back. something to the effect that there is enough different blood within the breed to get the same vigor you would crossbreeding. i wonder which time they were lying - back when they were promoting hybrid vigor to sell bulls or now. either that or they were referring to all the other breeds that now make up an angus.
When I spoke with a geneticist at AAA 10 years ago I was told there would be no heterosis. Through the years that has been proven correct.
 

Bez+

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j4rcattle":mer8e72p said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

A lot of breeders have done it

A lot of breeders do it

There are a few self proclaimed experts who will tell you it is a waste of time - yet it is quite common.

I will tell you as a HH breeder and owner - that people have come to us and bought to outcross their genetics.

Does it work? I do not know - each herd is so different that even to predict the outcome with no view of your own herd would be foolhardy.

Best to ask the people who have done it - and you can find them simply by talking to the Herf Associations directly.

If you make your breeding decisions based upon discussion here you could be in big trouble

Regards

Bez+
 

HerefordSire

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j4rcattle":2m39czv4 said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

I have read, when breeding polled Herefords to polled Herefords.....

The following represents four consequtive matings....

Line Breed, Line Breed, Line Breed, Outcross (pop).

In other words....

Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Heterosis Pop....

...while staying within the same breed.

A horned mated to a polled could be considered outcross within a breed
.
 

KNERSIE

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HerefordSire":1j7dl3ay said:
j4rcattle":1j7dl3ay said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

I have read, when breeding polled Herefords to polled Herefords.....

The following represents four consequtive matings....

Line Breed, Line Breed, Line Breed, Outcross (pop).

In other words....

Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Heterosis Pop....


...while staying within the same breed.

A horned mated to a polled could be considered outcross within a breed
.

I know where you have read that, grand idea, but not technically correct as used in the article. The outcross (and resultant heterosis) cannot take you to the next genetic level.
 

KNERSIE

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j4rcattle":2hzkgku3 said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

If you were to cross two linebred or inbred lines you'll likely see a very small heterosis effect, but you can do that with two poll lines as well.

Assuming you are talking registered stock here, what is to gain? Heterosis is a single generation deal, your bull customers isn't going to get any advantage from you crossing horned and poll genetics and ultimately that is what counts for a breeder.

Another consideration is if someone wants a poll hereford they really want a homozygous poll hereford. I know very few people go to the expense of proving homozygosity, I don't either, but as soon as your bulls are going to drop more than a few horned calves in the herds of people wanting poll bulls to get poll calves word of mouth is going to kill you.
 

Brandonm22

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HerefordSire makes a good point. If performance has been bound up for generations through a linebreeding program where linebreeding depression has built up then outcrossing to an unrelated line CAN produce a short term performance boost akin too heterosis. Unlike heterosis though it would be really hard to get that effect more than once. Once you have added heterozygosity adding a third line from the same breed is going to do almost nothing.
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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j4rcattle":2mihnbk6 said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?




Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no absolutely not.
 

HerefordSire

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KNERSIE":ftyol3m2 said:
HerefordSire":ftyol3m2 said:
j4rcattle":ftyol3m2 said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

I have read, when breeding polled Herefords to polled Herefords.....

The following represents four consequtive matings....

Line Breed, Line Breed, Line Breed, Outcross (pop).

In other words....

Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Heterosis Pop....


...while staying within the same breed.

A horned mated to a polled could be considered outcross within a breed
.

I know where you have read that, grand idea, but not technically correct as used in the article. The outcross (and resultant heterosis) cannot take you to the next genetic level.


That is why I stayed away from BR Moler. If I had my choosing, I would rather start with tightly inbred and advance to less inbred than the other way around because of the depression. I think of it like a wave. Inbreeding for three generations is usually six years so if I catch the third wave, I can profit off of some other breeder's work with less sweat. In a nutshell, a tightly wound genetic gem is resting in almost a complete depressed state waiting to explode.
 

S&WSigma40VEShooter

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That is why I stayed away from BR Moler. If I had my choosing, I would rather start with tightly inbred and advance to less inbred than the other way around because of the depression. I think of it like a wave. Inbreeding for three generations is usually six years so if I catch the third wave, I can profit off of some other breeder's work with less sweat. In a nutshell, a tightly wound genetic gem is resting in almost a complete depressed state waiting to explode.[/quote]

Tightly inbred? Oh my! Lol
 

bigbull338

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i bred reg polled herefords for a few years.an i stayed with the polled herefords.mixing the 2 doesnt hurt a thing.adding horned to polled isnt crossbreeding.so it doesnt add hybrid viger.but it does allow you to infuse new bloodlines into your herd.an they will be horn carriers.
 

alexfarms

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KNERSIE":2gn2dxma said:
HerefordSire":2gn2dxma said:
j4rcattle":2gn2dxma said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

I have read, when breeding polled Herefords to polled Herefords.....

The following represents four consequtive matings....

Line Breed, Line Breed, Line Breed, Outcross (pop).

In other words....

Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Inbreeding Depression, Heterosis Pop....


...while staying within the same breed.

A horned mated to a polled could be considered outcross within a breed
.

I know where you have read that, grand idea, but not technically correct as used in the article. The outcross (and resultant heterosis) cannot take you to the next genetic level.

What article was it?
 

msscamp

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j4rcattle":3kvrur8k said:
I am a polled Herford breeder in Eastern Oklahoma. I have a questions that may be crazy. I am wanting to cross a Horned bull onto my polled cows. Will I get the same result as any cross breeding operation. Will that pull from both the horned and polled to get a crossbred effect of growth and stamina in my calves?

I could very well be wrong here, but I don't think so. Regardless of whether the Hereford in question is polled or horned, it is still a Hereford. To get hybrid(sp?) vigor, you need to use two different breeds.
 

Alberta farmer

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Adding horned Hereford genetics into a polled herd used to be fairly common. This was done to "beef up" the polled Herefords and get rid of their skinny butts! I am sure the polled Herefords have these desired traits within the breed now but at one time they didn't.
At Innisfail Alberta the Hereford Association used to have a bull test center. 50% of the bulls(about 100 selling) were sold in a sale at the test center. Very few polled bulls made the cut and hardly any in the top 20%. Frankly they just weren't as good...and most of those polled bulls at the test center were from the top polled breeders in western Canada.
 
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