high priced funnel butt
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The irony is, when I see "funnel butt" in the field, I think he looks like a heifer so I took Doc's comment as a freudian slip.
On the other bull . . . he is the most masculine, largest, and musculoskeletally developed calf I have this year . . . almost developed beyond his age and probably even more than the pics suggest. Normally I would keep him intact to see how he turned out, but, as I mentioned, he had to be pulled at birth and I fear might give some bull customers calving problems as well. One hard calving bull can really put a bad taste in my customers' mouths. He looks great and has a lot going for him, but I'm not sure that always makes a herdsire either.
On the other bull . . . he is the most masculine, largest, and musculoskeletally developed calf I have this year . . . almost developed beyond his age and probably even more than the pics suggest. Normally I would keep him intact to see how he turned out, but, as I mentioned, he had to be pulled at birth and I fear might give some bull customers calving problems as well. One hard calving bull can really put a bad taste in my customers' mouths. He looks great and has a lot going for him, but I'm not sure that always makes a herdsire either.
*Cowgirl*
Well-known member
Power One isn't so great in butt department either......
http://angussemen.com/epd.asp?ID=1245
http://angussemen.com/epd.asp?ID=1245
*Cowgirl*":2of0whp1 said:
Your right about his butt but he seems to be a very high marbling bull.
Maybe I'm crazy but I keep seeing a correlation between less but, and more marbling. Am i kidding my self or does anyone else see this. I guess the extreme example would be Jerseys and Wagyu, they both wrote the book on funnel but, and they are both very high marbling breeds.
3waycross":29tbmlv5 said:
The conflicting part is general to cattle, giving you both is animals within breeds. For som reason that answer doesn;t make sense to me. But that's the best my foggy brain can think to explain it.
Workinonit Farm
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EAT BEEF":1mqch6bb said:
Same here. I thought "Oh Lord, Doc's finally gone off the deep end".....until I read where he thought it was a heifer. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol2: :lol2:
Please don't scare me like that again Doc. I've learned quite a bit from your posts.
Katherine
DOC HARRIS
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3waycross said-
"Your right about his butt but he seems to be a very high marbling bull.
Maybe I'm crazy but I keep seeing a correlation between less but, and more marbling. Am i kidding my self or does anyone else see this. I guess the extreme example would be Jerseys and Wagyu, they both wrote the book on funnel but, and they are both very high marbling breeds."
3waycross-As dun said, the traits are considered antagonistic to each other. Marbling has a close affinity with Milk, Maternal Traits, and Calving Ease. As we have noted before, HIGH Milk Epd's are also linked with Low Birth Weight, Maternal Traits and - - viola' - FUNNEL BUTTS!
This is diverging slightly from the subject at hand, but we have been exploring and discussing the term "Funnel Butt" on several threads - aside from this one, and here is another tangential "tack" to the approach as to "WHY" beef animals seem to lurch into the state of being funnel butts. It is no big mystery as to the reason(s) for a beef animal displaying a LACK of musculature in diverse areas of the body - GENETICS being primary among those conclusions. ...And, in studying the genetics of our beef friends, such as delving DEEPLY into EPD's, not just a cursory or off-hand glance, but a real, in depth study, we are covering such contingencies as the compatability or incompatibility of Marbling and Ribeye Size, or the volume of Milk Production of a Nursing cow contrasting the size or development of Carcass weights, Muscle Development of various cuts of Carcass, and the seeming antagonism between Milk production and Hindquarter development, in specific breeds, and the possible dissimilarities (or not!) between breeds.
While we are on the subject of "LACK OF HINDQUARTER MUSCLE DEVELOPMENT" or Funnel Butts, and judging cattle from "Observance of Pictures", take a look at the link which relates to Connealy Power One on this thread.
http://angussemen.com/epd.asp?ID=1245.
With the exclusion of any other characteristic or trait that this "picture" may or may not indicate - carefully observe how the "POSITIONING" of the bull has "almost" obliterated the rear border of the hindquarter by its' blending with the tail! Job "ONE" reason for not depending on a picture to make your bull selection decisions for you! And this is NOT saying anything negative about the bull himself! Only censuring the picture - itself - not the bull.
BREED THE BEST TO THE BEST!
DOC HARRIS
"Your right about his butt but he seems to be a very high marbling bull.
Maybe I'm crazy but I keep seeing a correlation between less but, and more marbling. Am i kidding my self or does anyone else see this. I guess the extreme example would be Jerseys and Wagyu, they both wrote the book on funnel but, and they are both very high marbling breeds."
3waycross-As dun said, the traits are considered antagonistic to each other. Marbling has a close affinity with Milk, Maternal Traits, and Calving Ease. As we have noted before, HIGH Milk Epd's are also linked with Low Birth Weight, Maternal Traits and - - viola' - FUNNEL BUTTS!
This is diverging slightly from the subject at hand, but we have been exploring and discussing the term "Funnel Butt" on several threads - aside from this one, and here is another tangential "tack" to the approach as to "WHY" beef animals seem to lurch into the state of being funnel butts. It is no big mystery as to the reason(s) for a beef animal displaying a LACK of musculature in diverse areas of the body - GENETICS being primary among those conclusions. ...And, in studying the genetics of our beef friends, such as delving DEEPLY into EPD's, not just a cursory or off-hand glance, but a real, in depth study, we are covering such contingencies as the compatability or incompatibility of Marbling and Ribeye Size, or the volume of Milk Production of a Nursing cow contrasting the size or development of Carcass weights, Muscle Development of various cuts of Carcass, and the seeming antagonism between Milk production and Hindquarter development, in specific breeds, and the possible dissimilarities (or not!) between breeds.
While we are on the subject of "LACK OF HINDQUARTER MUSCLE DEVELOPMENT" or Funnel Butts, and judging cattle from "Observance of Pictures", take a look at the link which relates to Connealy Power One on this thread.
http://angussemen.com/epd.asp?ID=1245.
With the exclusion of any other characteristic or trait that this "picture" may or may not indicate - carefully observe how the "POSITIONING" of the bull has "almost" obliterated the rear border of the hindquarter by its' blending with the tail! Job "ONE" reason for not depending on a picture to make your bull selection decisions for you! And this is NOT saying anything negative about the bull himself! Only censuring the picture - itself - not the bull.
BREED THE BEST TO THE BEST!
DOC HARRIS
RD-Sam
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OK Doc, I have missed something somewhere when looking at these EPD's, and I am new to all this, so don't beat me up too bad!
Why would a high milk EPD cause funnel butts? I thought that meant more milk than the norm for the breed? Wouldn't more milk produce more weight and a better chance for the cow to fill out? I understand that cost comes into play at a certain point, but lets skip that since we are discussing funnel butts.
Another senario, I won't name names, but lets say there is a bull with a score of 15 for calving ease, and I want to use him with heifers due to the lower birth weight. Does that mean I am going to get funnel butts because of the lower birth weight? And isn't lower birth weight what you are looking for when you are breeding a heifer?
Why would a high milk EPD cause funnel butts? I thought that meant more milk than the norm for the breed? Wouldn't more milk produce more weight and a better chance for the cow to fill out? I understand that cost comes into play at a certain point, but lets skip that since we are discussing funnel butts.
Another senario, I won't name names, but lets say there is a bull with a score of 15 for calving ease, and I want to use him with heifers due to the lower birth weight. Does that mean I am going to get funnel butts because of the lower birth weight? And isn't lower birth weight what you are looking for when you are breeding a heifer?
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Understanding some of these genetic occurrances require thinking "outside the box", so to speak. Sometimes the "box" is pretty large, as is the case with comprehending the manifestations of Genetic influences and inheritances. It is the opinion of some geneticists, and I agree with them, that ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING is determined, or at least strongly influenced, percentage-wise, by Dominant and Recessive allelic pairs. When both pairs are present in the germ plasm, the particular trait or characteristic is Dominant and appears in the germ plasm. When one of any pair of hereditary factors remains in the germ plasm, the trait remains latent, or recessive. The errors in thinking relating to these influences seem to predominate when breeders overlook the fact that because of the millions and millions of sperm which are present at any specific breeding event, even though the percentage of Dominance vs. Recessive remain the same, the fortuity, or happenstance occurrances, are astronomical! Therefore, it may take thousands of progeny to ascertain the predictable Accuracy of given matings. It may not. It is the same principle of flipping a coin 10 times and the results are APPROXIMATELY 50% heads - 50% tails. At 100 flips the percentages are closer to 50/50, and at ten thousand flips the percentages are almost exactly 50/50. Therefore - the more progeny (daughters preferably) that a bull has, the higher and more "Accurate" his predictability score demonstrates.3waycross":8xiv3b9n said:
Now, thinking "out of the box" again, High Milk EPD's, (and Low BW EPD's ,which seem to be interrelated) combine to produce higher Maternal characteristics which manifest, Phenotypically, into more minimal skeletal muscularity - vis-a'-vis lack of depth of Round, narrow shoulders, slab-sidedness or lack of width (thickness), AND - LACK OF HINDQUARTER MUSCULARITY - or to put it another way - - - FUNNEL BUTTS! But, because of the incredibly high number of genes in mating opportunities that there are, it doesn't breed true 100% of the time, unless you can produce 10,000 progeny! High Milk EPD - High Marbling % = Funnel Butt. Low Milk EPD - Low IMF = Terminal type, Muscular, Deep, Thick, Heavy-Quartered Beef Individual - NOT a Funnel Butt!
But NOT always!
Nothing ever works 100% the way you would wish it would!
DOC HARRIS
"funnel butt" . . . or "fb" . . . was actually intended to be a calving ease hopeful. She was a first calf heifer bread to a calving ease bull (power one) which requires some feminity of traits?, a longer neck?, and a shorter gestation. This calf has all three. Very feminine musculoskelatal structure, a giraffe length neck, and was born 10 days early. Even though he was a bull out of a first calf heifer, he squirted out like grabbin for the soap in the shower.
all things considered, I suppose there is much to be thankful for in such a situation and it's probably why such bulls exist. perhaps, then, I got exactly what I paid for and what the epds and phenotype suggested would happen . . . a live healthy growing calf out out of a first calf heifer.
all things considered, I suppose there is much to be thankful for in such a situation and it's probably why such bulls exist. perhaps, then, I got exactly what I paid for and what the epds and phenotype suggested would happen . . . a live healthy growing calf out out of a first calf heifer.
RD-Sam
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I think you probably made a good decision, the alternative might not have faired so well. I guess all you can do is select what you think would be the best to use as a sire, if it doesn't turn out so well you know not to do that again, or at least a smart person does. :lol2: GAR Solution looks pretting good to me and I am going to give him a go with a first time heifer, might be in the same boat as you with a funnel butt. :lol2:
