Hereford information or misinformation

[Herefords.US]

I
I understand about talk to the breeder about this animal, but if the numbers you are say in accurate 1000 mamma cows and 600 commerical cows, how can he remember this ONE bull, It's DAME which has only had 3-4 calves.

I can remember an old fella by the name of Barney Carter. He was in his 80s when I met him and I was 14. He was selling out his herd of registered Herefords - which the dispersion lasted several days and numbered close to 1000 lots. But you could mention one of his cows to him, at random, and he could tell you about every animal in their 5 generation pedigree, in detail, and do it all from memory!

Now, I'm sure I couldn't do that - and apparently you don't think you could either - but you don't know what this breeder knows about that bull without ASKING HIM!

George

 

[Herefords.US]

Many breeders can enter their own data online...

That kinda twists the knife. I can sit here in my office, click open my laptop and enter my own data online; nobody will even see it happen. And when I retrieve EPD data, it's the same thing in reverse: it's just a small, simple file saved on a hard drive, available at the click of a keyboard. Yet to do either one, you have to go through all the TPR foofooraw and expense. It's easy to see where all these negative comments come from.

Ruark, as a new breeder, I would tell you to join the AHA and also participate in the TPR program - if you a desire to sell and market registered Hereford cattle. This thread should be testimony to anyone starting out in the business that is the prudent thing to do.

George

 

[cbcr]

stockbub wrote:
I spoke to one of the ladies at the AHA and was specifically told that with this bull, I could not EVER get Epd's since its dame did not have Epd's. Any calf that I have out of this bull could NEVER have EPD's. I could Pedigree them, but never get EPD.
BUbba

I would hope that you were misinformed. Even with the Composite Beef Cattle Registry you could have an EPD evaluation which EPD's are based off of several factors. If you have a minimum of 5 contemporaries born within a 60-90 day period, take birth weights, weaning weights, at least, and possible yearling weights, you should be able to have EPD's calculated for the calves sired by this bull. Parentage in this case is known as well.

Other breed registries that offer breeding up programs will use the breed average EPD for a non-registered parent animal and use the performance of the offspring for an EPD.

 

[stockbub]

The ladies name was Beverly. Do not know her title, but she was the most informed person there. Her words were that since the DAME did not have EPD's and there was no information from her (BW, WW, YW) they could not calculate her EPD. Since my Bull does not have BW< WW< YW AND his mother had no information, EPD's could not ever be calculated with ANY degree of certainty. Even if I kept records on this Bull of all calves, multigenerations, and anything else that you can think of, I could never get EPD's from them.

If his mom had EPD's AND We had my bulls YW, they could get some EPDs, but again staticially unaccuarate.

 

[Herefords.US]

The ladies name was Beverly. Do not know her title, but she was the most informed person there. Her words were that since the DAME did not have EPD's and there was no information from her (BW, WW, YW) they could not calculate her EPD. Since my Bull does not have BW< WW< YW AND his mother had no information, EPD's could not ever be calculated with ANY degree of certainty. Even if I kept records on this Bull of all calves, multigenerations, and anything else that you can think of, I could never get EPD's from them.

If his mom had EPD's AND We had my bulls YW, they could get some EPDs, but again staticially unaccuarate.

Beverly is usually reliable, so I 'm probably the one who's wrong. And that certainly gives me something to think about regarding my own situation. I was planning on enrolling my herd in TPR this year. Now I'm wondering if that's going to be possible.

George

 

[stockbub]

I do not know if in your case if you give them all the information that your stuff could not eventually be calculated. I kow they would not calculate it as long as you are a pedigree breeder. In my case, then information is simply not there. I do not know the price difference between the two programs. Have you looked at cost both ways per year?

 

[bigag03]

Whether the program is TPR or THR or whatever your particular breed association calls it, these programs were designed to increase the accuracy of data that is used for EPD calculations. If the honor system worked, then I am sure that all of these NON-PROFIT breed associations would find a better way to structure the program. At the end of the day, the only way to get anyone to do what is necessary is to hit them in the pocketbook.

Example: (with easy math, don't analyze the actual numbers)
You have 10 registered calves 5 with WW of 475 lbs, 2 with WW of 520 lbs, 1 with WW of 525 lbs, 2 with WW of 530 lbs (overall average of 500 lbs).

On the old system, you cull the 5 calves below 500 lbs and only register the 5 over 500 lbs, but by doing that now, your 520 lb calves are 5 lbs below average even though they are better calves. Because of this, their EPD calculations are incorrect because the number that holds the largest weight in EPD calculation is the ratio within a contemporary group.

In the new system, you still cull the 5 calves below 500 lbs, but you turn in data on all of them because you have already paid for it. By doing this, now your 520 lb calves (your "worst" calves left) have a ratio that reflects that they are 20 lbs above average and their EPDs reflect this performance.

The only way to have reliable EPDs is to turn in ALL data. Recommend a better solution to collecting this data or quit complaining about the current system.