Hereford eye pigment - how much is enough to call pigmented?

[SRBeef]

The question was asked about my bull pictures below: "are they pigmented".

As this is not something I have paid much attention to I took a look at my bulls and a few cows this afternoon.

Now if there is a large red spot around the eye, some would call "goggle-eyed" I can understand that.

However most of my Herefords including bull U070 have just a touch of red hair around the eye.

My question is would these be called "pigmented"? How much pigment is needed to be called "pigmented"?

Here are two pictures, one a closeup of U070's eye, another of one of my older cows. Would these be called "pigmented" as Knersie described? I'm trying to learn something here.

Thanks for any replies.

Jim

 

[1914 Hereford]

The way We have always looked at it both cows would be considered pigmented. I would say the top pictured cow's left eye is 75-80% pigmented based on the portion of the eye that is circled in red pigment. Usually the wider the red area the more heavily pigmented the animal is considered but not a higher per cent.

 

[KNERSIE]

The bull's eye is 80% pigmented the cow looks more or less the same, but can't tell for sure. You just need the entire eyelid on both eyes to be pigmented to call it fully pigmented.

 

[SRBeef]

Knersie, at what percent pigmented are your bull customers satisfied? or not satisfied?

Is this fixation on eye pigment related to a concern about pink eye?

Thank you both for your information.

Jim

 

[I luv herfrds]

What Knersie has said about pink eye is it is caused by flies transmitting the disease.

Now personally speaking we like the eye pigment. I have yet to have a cow get cancer on their eye lid since we started using bulls with eye pigment.

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie, at what percent pigmented are your bull customers satisfied? or not satisfied?

They want 100% on both eyes

Is this fixation on eye pigment related to a concern about pink eye?

Yes, that and also being uneducated on what causes pink eye. The fact of the matter is it has been an ongoing issue in the breed that has been mostly unadressed costing the breed more marketshare than anyone care to believe.

Thank you both for your information.

Jim

Pigment is also one of the toughest traits to fix in a herd as no-one knows how the heritability works and just when you think you have it all figured out you'll get a white eyed calf out of nowhere. I'll never use a unpigmented bull again and I'll never sell an unpigmented bull to anyone but a dairy farmer. I would have liked to say I'll never sell an unpigmented bull again to anyone, but this last year I just didn't get enough bullcalves of the quality I like that has full pigment, so in order to meet demand and make the bank balance I'll have to sell a few of those that are good otherwise except they have a lack of eye pigment.

 

[JHH]

Knersie, at what percent pigmented are your bull customers satisfied? or not satisfied?

They want 100% on both eyes

Is this fixation on eye pigment related to a concern about pink eye?

[b]Yes, that and also being uneducated on what causes pink eye. The fact of the matter is it has been an ongoing issue in the breed that has been mostly unadressed costing the breed more marketshare than anyone care to believe.[/b]

Thank you both for your information.

Jim

Pigment is also one of the toughest traits to fix in a herd as no-one knows how the heritability works and just when you think you have it all figured out you'll get a white eyed calf out of nowhere. I'll never use a unpigmented bull again and I'll never sell an unpigmented bull to anyone but a dairy farmer. I would have liked to say I'll never sell an unpigmented bull again to anyone, but this last year I just didn't get enough bullcalves of the quality I like that has full pigment, so in order to meet demand and make the bank balance I'll have to sell a few of those that are good otherwise except they have a lack of eye pigment.

Knersie, The pinkeye thing is brought up time after time in the coffee shop. The first words out of their mouth when they here hereford is pinkeye, the second is cancer eye. How do you educate them when they are so set in their ways. ( Angus is the way)

I do have a younger gentleman that is a very good friend using a herf bull A-I for the first time ever. I hope we get 50 % settled and I hope they outgrow everthing around them this next fall as they will be the only crossbred calves. All the others will be straight angus. If these work out I will see a herf bull in his herd the next fall.

I think my problem is the average age of a calf producer here at home is probably 65. ( I think the old saying is true) You cant teach an old dog new tricks. They were burnt by the frame race.

P.M. me if you like so we dont highjack Jims thread.

Jim your new bull looks good. I do think the one you raised may be better. I would reserve judgment till I see some more pics.

 

[SRBeef]

I have a very good vet. He has a herd of Angus cattle himself. We work my herd together twice a year, once in May and once in November.

As part of his spring booster shots he gives all of my Herefords pinkeye shots, as he does his own Angus.

He says it is important to control flies which I do with several rubs soaked with a diesel/permectrin (sp?) mix and the dangling things to cover their faces.

I have had zero cases of pinkeye, I have zero cases of cancer eye.

Jim

 

[plumber_greg]

Jim,Don't want to hijack your thread either, but this pinkeye thing is strange. I keep my cow and calf pairs in 3 herds for breeding purposes. All cattle are treated the same, checked the same,everything hte same. Last year I had one herd with 50% pinkeye problems, and none in the rest. The ones with the problem were 2 miles from any other herd. Treated and treated them.
Was worried mixing them all together when they were weaned, as some of them had just gotten over it. Never had any problem in hte 90 days I kept them together. I think nutrition may play the biggest role in the problem. The ones with the problem were getting short on pasture and I didn't want to move them, cuz' I was gonna' wean.
I saw your pics of your grass, maybe that is helping you. Maybe it's the vacc., maybe it's the fly control, maybe it's the mineral, maybe it's god. What I am saying is just because you don't have a problem now doesn't mean you can't have a train wreck the next year or next week. Just don't do anything different, and do all you can. If you ever get it all figured out, pm me and well go in business. Us parttimers need something to keep our habit goin'.

 

[SRBeef]

Greg, Pinkeye is obviously spread by flies. Once it gets in a group it can be spread by that groups local fly population. I think fly control is key in addition to all the other elements you suggest. Besides the nutrition, mineral, etc should be a given anyway. The spring shots may be a big factor also.

However once it gets started, even in a neighbors herd flies will spread it. I am a strong believe in the rubs with the dangling things in a path to water etc where they must pass a couple times a day and keep the rub doused with the diesel/permectrin mix, especially after a heavy rain. jmho.

Jim

 

[dun]

Fly control is vital but sometime watch the flys on a Herefords face. If the eyes are pigmented they may have flys around the eyes, but if there is an unpigmented spot aorund the eye the flys will concentrate on that unpigmented area.

 

[Beef Man]

Being a hereford breeder we pride ourselves on tryingt o raise everything with heavy pigment but it is not always easy . have bred for pigment for ever and still have a ways to go.As far as pigment and pinkeye--cancer eye I never have trully beleived that pigment or the lack of it had a lot to contribute either way as have had really red eye'd cattle on occasion get pinkeye on a certan year and have white eyes in the same group,no problems???? I was with Frank Felton looking at his polled herefords a few years ago and Frank asked me what I did'nt like about his cows and I said "you need more pigment". His answerr was hell I've got that herd of angus cows and we treat much more eye problems in them. I have seen pinkeye in black cattle that was very hard to control. I really beleive that cancer eye is a genetic problem and can be selected against and gradually worked out of a herd. One other fianacial importance of a heavy pigmented hereford herd is, the great demand for breeding cattle tto go into straight angus herds and they love big red eyes.

 

[KNERSIE]

Being a hereford breeder we pride ourselves on tryingt o raise everything with heavy pigment but it is not always easy . have bred for pigment for ever and still have a ways to go.As far as pigment and pinkeye--cancer eye I never have trully beleived that pigment or the lack of it had a lot to contribute either way as have had really red eye'd cattle on occasion get pinkeye on a certan year and have white eyes in the same group,no problems???? I was with Frank Felton looking at his polled herefords a few years ago and Frank asked me what I did'nt like about his cows and I said "you need more pigment". His answerr was be nice I've got that herd of angus cows and we treat much more eye problems in them. I have seen pinkeye in black cattle that was very hard to control. I really beleive that cancer eye is a genetic problem and can be selected against and gradually worked out of a herd. One other fianacial importance of a heavy pigmented hereford herd is, the great demand for breeding cattle tto go into straight angus herds and they love big red eyes.

I agree completely

My point is that the lack of pigment is the perceived problem of the hereford breed, we as breeders can either select away from white eyes or continue to add to the reasons to buy an angus bull.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Knersie, at what percent pigmented are your bull customers satisfied? or not satisfied?

Is this fixation on eye pigment related to a concern about pink eye?

Thank you both for your information.

Jim

My impression from Hereford folks around here over the years is that the fixation here any way is a concern about cancer eye.

We haven't had a Hereford bull here sinse the mid seventies nor a cancer in any of our cattle. But I guarantee once you see your first bad pie plate sized cancer eye you will understand the fixation.

 

[SRBeef]

Knersie, at what percent pigmented are your bull customers satisfied? or not satisfied?

Is this fixation on eye pigment related to a concern about pink eye?

Thank you both for your information.

Jim

My impression from Hereford folks around here over the years is that the fixation here any way is a concern about cancer eye.

We haven't had a Hereford bull here sinse the mid seventies nor a cancer in any of our cattle. But I guarantee once you see your first bad pie plate sized cancer eye you will understand the fixation.

I can understand how folks would remember something like that but if cancer. Eye is a genetic defect that has been bred out since the '70's then why the tie in to eye pigmentation?

 

[KNERSIE]

It depends on where it starts, if it starts on the lower eyelid its basically the same as skin cancer found in humans. In the case of humans, you are more susceptible to sun related skin cancer if you have a fair complexion, the same principle applies to cattle. I personally have only ever seen cancer eye that started on the eyeball itself and that was mostly in jersey cows which have black pigment around the eye.

 

[Brandonm22]

I am no veterinarian but I am with you Knersie. All the cancer eye cases I have seen looked like they started on the eyeball NOT the eyelid, though with an advanced case in a cull at the stockyard it is often a guess as to where it started.

 

[dun]

I've only ever seen 1 case of cancer eye, it started it looked like the lower lid and it was in a solid black cow