Herd advancement

[shadyhollownj]

I actually never finished school. Had some family issues and never went back. I make more than my engineer friends though so I'm not that concerned.

George you know I will need a shirt too. Maybe we can get the second half off.

I would rather buy embryos. I just was curious what has worked for others. I really dont wanna fork out a ton of money and be stuck with those genetics. Thanks everyone.

 

[Nesikep]

Excellent quote alexfarms... a neighboring place here was sold to a millionaire doctor who bought eachof his 3 sons a ranch... he may have been a good cancer doctor but it doesn't mean you can ranch... and we had our share of laughs at his expense.
Everything we know we learned the hard way too... experience is what you get just after you need it

Hereford.US makes a good point about if you buy a donor you will always be getting half siblings, while with ET you can avoid that.

Don't forget that good things do take time, and when I go bull shopping I look at how long the people have been doing it for... 25 years is a start, 3rd generation is better

 

[JWBrahman]

Ok so I run a small registered herd. I do have a budget and have been pondering this question. Is it better to say buy 6K in embryos and a half decent 5K cow OR say just buy a few embryos and buy a proven 5 yr old cow for 10k that could be a donor cow. My thoughts with the embryos would be that say for every four you would only result in two calves. Now that is a lot of time before it would pay off but you have the chance to get a real good ET heifer or bull. you could also spend 3K on those four embryos and get nothing special. Where as if you buy a proven donor type cow you would have a great proven cow that you could flush. I put my first embryos last year and calves are hitting the ground now so I know what the ET deal involves. So the question is what is the better way to advance your herd. Buy the expensive female or gamble with embryos? Just looking for peoples experiences.

Had a similar discussion this week with another CT member. I noticed that the Hereford breeder I got my bull from had a Holstein for ET. Jason Smith over at Smith Brahmans has a few Holstein recip cows for ET, too. Since the price for solid Brahman cows is something I cannot bring myself to pay I was considering getting a few poor milking Holsteins and dropping them off at Jason's or Genex to implant embryos.

 

[JWBrahman]

I'll quote Gene Henkel and I believe he quoted the line from John Brown: "All men are stupid in different ways."

Funny how that works, I swear I have made more mistakes in cattle than good moves.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

shadyhollownj-

- - - - - - - Wait a minute. . . wait a minute . . . (As Jack Benny used to say in one of his routine comic bits, "- - - - when I say 'wait a minute' I mean "WAIT - A - MINUTE!") Throughout this entire thread I am getting the feeling that the most critical and important factor(s) in your "plans" for your herd is the MONEY that you will spend, - - or whether the the 5 yr old 10K cow could untimately turn out to be a donor, - - or that 3K worth of embryos could maybe turn out to be - - - ???

Let's take a deep breath and step back a minute to review some real facts: in building a herd - (fast or slow, but correctly), the primary, basic, fundamental goal to place uppermost in your planning is NOT to allow the almighty dollar to determine the quality of the future of your herd, but to carefully assign "QUALITY OF SEEDSTOCK" selections to reign as the deciding element in your goal-setting plans. Whether one decides to utilize donor females, embryos, either sexed or not, spend 10K on a cow (proven or not) or on a heifer, buy one or (?) expensive females - or a balanced combination of any or all of the above, the amount of money that they are supposedly "Worth" has no applicable revelance to what one might plan to depend on for future progeny in a herd.

All of the suggestions presented by the members here have merit. IF the judicial use of Genoomic-enhanced EPD's, high density Molecular Value Predictions and knowledgeable understanding and utilization of both Phenotype and Genotype traits and characteristics are BALANCED in matings with both the bull and females - then a breeder has the correct foundation and basis for planning his herd future. But to have $$$ dictating the expected quality results of matings is backwards. Focusing on genetic quality and Balance for correct mating practices - whichever mating practices you should choose - should take precedence over how much "money" they might be worth.

Investment dollars are of heavy importance in building a profitable herd, but "Balanced Genetics" is JOB ONE.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aaron]

shadyhollownj-

- - - - - - - Wait a minute. . . wait a minute . . . (As Jack Benny used to say in one of his routine comic bits, "- - - - when I say 'wait a minute' I mean "WAIT - A - MINUTE!") Throughout this entire thread I am getting the feeling that the most critical and important factor(s) in your "plans" for your herd is the MONEY that you will spend, - - or whether the the 5 yr old 10K cow could untimately turn out to be a donor, - - or that 3K worth of embryos could maybe turn out to be - - - ???

Let's take a deep breath and step back a minute to review some real facts: in building a herd - (fast or slow, but correctly), the primary, basic, fundamental goal to place uppermost in your planning is NOT to allow the almighty dollar to determine the quality of the future of your herd, but to carefully assign "QUALITY OF SEEDSTOCK" selections to reign as the deciding element in your goal-setting plans. Whether one decides to utilize donor females, embryos, either sexed or not, spend 10K on a cow (proven or not) or on a heifer, buy one or (?) expensive females - or a balanced combination of any or all of the above, the amount of money that they are supposedly "Worth" has no applicable revelance to what one might plan to depend on for future progeny in a herd.

All of the suggestions presented by the members here have merit. IF the judicial use of Genoomic-enhanced EPD's, high density Molecular Value Predictions and knowledgeable understanding and utilization of both Phenotype and Genotype traits and characteristics are BALANCED in matings with both the bull and females - then a breeder has the correct foundation and basis for planning his herd future. But to have $$$ dictating the expected quality results of matings is backwards. Focusing on genetic quality and Balance for correct mating practices - whichever mating practices you should choose - should take precedence over how much "money" they might be worth.

Investment dollars are of heavy importance in building a profitable herd, but "Balanced Genetics" is JOB ONE.

DOC HARRIS

DING. DING. DING. We have a winner!

 

[Herefords.US]

DING. DING. DING. We have a winner!

Do you really think so, Aaron? All I see is a bunch of bloviation in that post!

But I also give shadyhollownj enough credit that he has a general blueprint of what he wants to do in building his herd - the same way he'd have a blueprint that he'd be using in whatever he's building as a contractor. There's certainly nothing wrong with having a budget - and giving some serious thought to how it might be best spent to move toward a goal.

I don't know about you, Aaron, but I've NEVER gone to an auction sale where I DIDN'T have a budget - and a maximum amount that I could spend. Along with a plan! Several times I have left an auction with my money still in my pocket and nothing in the trailer - or less than what I went there for. Because my pockets aren't deep enough to spend $600,000 for 3/4ths of a yearling herd bull prospect, even if I was absolutely sure that he was THE PERFECT BULL for my herd. Now there's a case where the MONEY trumps "genetics"!

:tiphat:
George

 

[Aaron]

Whatever way you want to twist it.

 

[JWBrahman]

Theoretical: You want the genetically superior, well balanced herd Doc talks about.
Practical: You have to make it work or economic pressures will kick in and the land will go to more profitable uses.

Sugarcane pays $500/acre per year.
Cattle pays $50/acre per year.

 

[shadyhollownj]

I dont really know where this got off on the I wanna spend 10K on a cow without any concern of genetics. Doc I usually get what you are saying but this post is outta left field. Where did I say I want a 10k cow that looks terrible with terrible parents and epds? Who is focused on money? I threw a number out for an example and you a running with it like I said i just wanna spend 10k on bad cow cause some jerk from CT ran me up. Dont think by any means that SL wasnt a learning experience. Yeah I probably wont make the money spent worth it but it was a great lesson. Bad lesson but still a good lesson for the future.

As I said earlier I have talked to 2 breeders that gave me advice to spend as much as I could on a good cow rather than a few average cows to advance the herd. I can repeat that if everyone wants to keep ignoring that. That is what THEY recommended to do. NOT ME. That is why I posed the question to see which way members here have done it. I do care about genetics and breeding and not just Epds. I have spoken to more breeders across the country about flushes and embryos than I can even count.

Thanks George. Apparently we need to let people know what a Budget is. I have one and have several ways to try to get better stock. Maybe I should just close my eyes and wake up with a silver spoon and all the experience of a multigenerational ranching family instead of being a guy thats never farmed and trying to get ahead with his herd that has a budget, goals, and balls which apparently a lot of people here are lacking.

 

[smnherf]

There is no right way or wrong way to advance the genetics of a herd. It comes down to your skills at evaluating those genetics whether they are frozen in a tank or embryos implanted in a recip or an actual cow that you have to make the mating decisions on. I suggest that before you put $10,000 down on a cow or $1000 on some embryos that you carefully evaluate what you are buying. Is it just a bunch of over promoted over hyped high epd cattle or over fed show cattle that are basically genetic freaks and when they have my name on them under my management, will they be worth something to someone else. It is not just the first generation either, what will the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation look like too? It is a long term business. Some of the cheapest cows I have bought have been the biggest contributer to my herds genetics in the long term and some of the more expensive haven't lasted long at all.