Growing heifers

[TexasBred]

I am going with the universities and TFS
Not according to our PH when clearing pine plantation it will run from 5.0 to 5.5. according to
TAMU, SFA, or SHU when sent off for testing. According to our Forester from TAMU the sandy soils
along with thousands of acres of pine create the perfect environment for acidic soils the lime leaches out
not the acid from the pines.
We are not paying 70 dollars a ton for lime for fun. If the cleared land hasn't been in a pine stand
you wont need hardly any lime here.

CB much of East Texas requires a ton or two of lime every year and has never had a tree of any kind on it in 60 years.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I am going with the universities and TFS
Not according to our PH when clearing pine plantation it will run from 5.0 to 5.5. according to
TAMU, SFA, or SHU when sent off for testing. According to our Forester from TAMU the sandy soils
along with thousands of acres of pine create the perfect environment for acidic soils the lime leaches out
not the acid from the pines.
We are not paying 70 dollars a ton for lime for fun. If the cleared land hasn't been in a pine stand
you wont need hardly any lime here.

CB much of East Texas requires a ton or two of lime every year and has never had a tree of any kind on it in 60 years.

Well I am going to tell those thousands of acres in pine plantations that all the watershed runs over my place it
is not acidic. Funny when the rich guy bought and cleared the 200 acres next to mine 5 years ago that is uphill
my lime requirements went from a ton an acre to 200lbs. He doesn't put anything on his place and it still looks like crap.

 

[TexasBred]

From Texas A&M:

MYTH BUSTING

A common misconception is that acidic mulches can increase soil acidity? This common belief has virtually no research support, yet the myth persists. Try a google search on the topic and you'll get hundreds of pages of advice on how to increase soil acidity with pine needles and oak leaves.

If soil pH could be reduced by using pine and oak leaf mulches, it would have wonderful implications for the kinds of plants we might be able to grow in our West Texas landscapes. However, researchers have not been able to significantly acidify soil with mulches of pine needles or oak leaves. Even after years of applying these mulches, the soils underneath maintain a pH common to their region. Soils of the Llano Estacado are slightly alkaline, hovering around a pH of about 7.8.

So where does this myth come from? It is true that pine needles have a very acidic pH of about 3.5 when they fall to the ground and oak leaves have a pH of about 5. However, the process of decomposition by weathering and soil microbes generates organic material that is neutral to slightly alkaline.

Slight changes in pH may be temporarily observed in the thin layer of soil immediately beneath decomposing oak leaves and pine needles but the effect would not be significant enough to start an azalea farm in West Texas. Even incorporating acidic forms of organic matter into the soil does little to change pH in the long run. The volume of soil beneath a mulch is simply too massive to be easily changed by even the most acidic sources of organic matter. Even if the byproducts of decomposition were not near neutral, they would quickly be neutralized by soil components.

Soil has a remarkable capacity to resist change. This buffering capacity, as it is known, is one of soil's most important fundamental chemical properties. Soils are composed of cations (positively charged elements) and anions (negatively charged elements). When a positive ion such as hydrogen is introduced into the soil, it quickly reacts with calcium, magnesium, potassium or another anion and is effectively shielded by oppositely charged components in the soil. A similar reaction occurs when negatively charged compounds are introduced into the soil.

The amount of time and volume of material required to change soil pH is absurdly large in West Texas simply because of the huge reservoir of bases in our soils. In the final analysis we are compelled, by forces mostly beyond our control, to put plants in our landscapes that enjoy our climate and appreciate the pH of our soils. In fact, you may be familiar with the saying, "the right plant in the right place." Soil pH is one of the factors that limit the selection of plants we can enjoy in West Texas.

 

[Caustic Burno]

TB you should stick to being the AH and a banker.
I will depend on my organic chemistry from college.

http://www.vtaide.com/png/carbonCycle.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid

I will make you a deal don't ever post a response to me and I will give you the same
courtesy.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Muddy that article is partially right in a pine needle doesn't give off carbonic acid.
All I can tell you is get a ph meter and check the soil under the trees here you will get 5.5 to 6.0
I taught college level organic chemistry to incoming engineers.
All decaying plant and animal life gives off ammonia, nitrogen, hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide "most"
has reached its peak release rate from 14 to 21 days.
The county I live in is the most forested county in the state with 96% of the county being forest.
Carbonic acid has always been a problem just not as bad as the last 40 years.
Most of East Texas was deciduous forest with the leaves falling late Oct. to early Nov typically our driest time of year.
The deciduous forest has been replaced with over two million acres of pine plantation.
The continuous release of the needles in a constant state of decay along with 60+ inches of rainfall makes for acidic runoff.
Water plus Carbon dioxide make carbonic acid, this is not Acid Rain.
Most rainfall is generally slightly acidic due to the carbonic acid from carbon dioxide in atmosphere. Acid rain is caused when sulfur dioxides mainly come in contact with water making sulfuric acid. That is simplified as sulfur dioxides get oxidized further
to sulfur trioxdes causing sulfuric acid.

With all that said a lot of variables come into play the amount of decaying matter the stage of decay along with
water comes into play. Coupled with sandy soil that leaches out the lime .

Here is a pretty simple explanation
http://www.ausetute.com.au/acidrain.html

I happen to live where conditions are perfect.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Well now that we're up to speed on our carbonic acid, just throw the heifers a scoop of oats morning and night - and give them good hay or baleage. Easy peasy. If they can't hack it on that diet and grow, they aren't worth having.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

How dare you put this thread back on track!

:cboy:

 

[cowgirl8]

This has turned into a case in point. I'm right your wrong..........anyone on here who thinks they are right will argue their point...not just me...
We run 5 herds, some have reg bulls, a couple have 'mongrels'.....We are able to compare herds and on average, the mongrels wean larger calves otherwise we would not use them.......period.....

 

[bball]

Well now that we're up to speed on our carbonic acid, just throw the heifers a scoop of oats morning and night - and give them good hay or baleage. Easy peasy. If they can't hack it on that diet and grow, they aren't worth having.

I like it! :clap:

 

[TexasBred]

TB you should stick to being the AH and a banker.
I will depend on my organic chemistry from college.

http://www.vtaide.com/png/carbonCycle.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid

I will make you a deal don't ever post a response to me and I will give you the same
courtesy.

You always rely on your "opinion" and you know what they say about those. I'll listen to the experts that teach those organic chemistry classes and do actual research and have their finding to back them up. ;-) BTW don't feel obligated to ever respond to my posts or those of anyone else especially when what you have to say is strictly opinion. Just stay in your little bubble of ignorance.

 

[Muddy]

This has turned into a case in point. I'm right your wrong..........anyone on here who thinks they are right will argue their point...not just me...
We run 5 herds, some have reg bulls, a couple have 'mongrels'.....We are able to compare herds and on average, the mongrels wean larger calves otherwise we would not use them.......period.....

I don't think you know what consistency really means, Linda. It has nothing with color. But then again, your pride has blinded you as usual.

 

[Caustic Burno]

TB you should stick to being the AH and a banker.
I will depend on my organic chemistry from college.

http://www.vtaide.com/png/carbonCycle.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid

I will make you a deal don't ever post a response to me and I will give you the same
courtesy.

You always rely on your "opinion" and you know what they say about those. I'll listen to the experts that teach those organic chemistry classes and do actual research and have their finding to back them up. ;-) BTW don't feel obligated to ever respond to my posts or those of anyone else especially when what you have to say is strictly opinion. Just stay in your little bubble of ignorance.

TB just for the record I used to think you were a man of integrity how wrong I was.
I want to thank you for showing me the error of my ways and just how big a pile of pasture protein you are.

 

[TexasBred]

TB just for the record I used to think you were a man of integrity how wrong I was.
I want to thank you for showing me the error of my ways and just how big a pile of pasture protein you are.

Dang you mean you're admitting you were wrong about something?? That's a first. I really could care less what you think of me. Facts are facts. I give you facts and you get PO'd because facts contradict your opinion. Where is the integrity in that??