Going Hayless: Part 2

[nap]

I have posted recently about my plan to go (almost) hayless this winter. I received a lot of interesting responses ranging from you can't be serious to encouragement. The focal point of my plan includes 80 acres of mostly tall fescue. I want to achieve maximum potential from this pasture going into the winter. Last winter it did very well as a feed source through January. I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to handle the fescue so that it may even be better this winter. I live in southern Arkansas and we had an average but wet winter last year. I also plan on using the MIG techniques for grazing this winter. I am wondering when would be a good time to pull the cattle off of it and any tips for getting maximal growth.

 

[dyates]

If I were to do it here, I would pull the cows off by the first of September and hit it with 50 pounds N per acre. Start strip grazing after the first frost.

 

[J. T.]

Dyates is correct. I haven't fed hay in several years. Most of this farm is in KY 31 tall fescue. I set aside a portion that I will stockpile, turn the cows on it in late summer and let them graze it low. I then remove them and pray for rain. When rain is immenent, I hit it with 60 lbs/N and hold the cows off for as long as possible which is about Dec. 1st. I use poly tape fences and turn them into a section until it is garazed down, move the fence, repeat, and do this until the whole stockpiled forage has been grazed. I do feed some whole shelled corn on nights that we're expecting low temps and rain. With fescue, I see no reason for me to purchase hay, much less invest in equipment when the cows can harvest the forage for themselves. One thing I would improve on on my own system is to add legumes ( Ladino clover, crimson clover, or red clover) to offset the endophyte in the fescue. If the resources are there, I hope to do just that this fall.

 

[nap]

Thanks for the helpful comments. That is close to the plan I was going to follow with the exception of the fertilizer. The pasture has been rotationally grazed so far this summer and I am hoping that the cattle took care of the fertilizer needs. I do have legumes in other areas that I will feed as soon as I can in late winter. I also have a few bales of hay in case of snow. I am fairly confident that this system will work. Last winter I fed 15 round bales for about 50 head and each cow calved in spring or early summer.

 

[Jogeephus]

I sure wish we could grow fescue. I'd be doing it too.

 

[jbar]

If you go on http://www.dvauction.com/ .
in the seminar recordings there is one with Jim Gerrish the man that started M.I.G.
Its very good.
You have to register in order to listen the seminar.
they have live cattle auctions from around the country.

 

[dun]

The pasture has been rotationally grazed so far this summer and I am hoping that the cattle took care of the fertilizer needs.

Grazing only returns a high percentage of fertilizer value that is consumed, it doesn;t create any. The idea of a shot of N is to stimulate rapid growth for the short fall period that it is growing and before it slows down for the winter. If there were legumes in the field 30 lbs of N is better then the higher amount.

 

[kb5iod]

Nap,

I am also located in south Arkansas and I would encourage you to talk to Dr. Paul Beck at the University of Arkansas research center at Hope. I attended a presentation he did on this subject about a year ago. The comments here are in line with what the research shows. One thing Dr. Beck emphasized is that the fescue field must be clipped or grazed before stock piling begins. Also, their tests involved strip grazing to use all available forage. As Dun said, the shot of N is very important to get the fescue up and going. I used some of these techniques last year and plan to incorporate a few more this year.

 

[Bluestem]

Research has shown that nitrogen fixing microbes shut down when high amounts of nitrogen are added to the soil. I agree with dun, use the lessor amount of nitrogen. But I would disagree that proper grazing does not improve the fertility of the soil. nap your on the right path. But keep your backside covered. Keep a good supply of hay in the barn. A bad drought or winter changes all the rules.

 

[dun]

I would disagree that proper grazing does not improve the fertility of the soil.

How does a cow put more nutrients into the soil then is removed by the forage she eats?

 

[BC]

On the MIG dairies I have visited, all had to add some nitrogen periodically to boost grass production. On our poor, sandy soils in Van Zandt County, most had to add phoshorus and potassium for several years until those levels were built up. Now they just add a little nitrogen.

You do get some nutrient recycling, but you have to have the nutrients there to recycle.

 

[kb5iod]

You do get some nutrient recycling, but you have to have the nutrients there to recycle.

My understanding is that about 90% can be recycled through the cow. I am adding a lot of chicken litter to my place because I need the P and K. I can see how MIG can concentrate nutrients where they are needed but I am curious how nutrients can be added without an outside source.

 

[BC]

You do get some nutrient recycling, but you have to have the nutrients there to recycle.

My understanding is that about 90% can be recycled through the cow. I am adding a lot of chicken litter to my place because I need the P and K. I can see how MIG can concentrate nutrients where they are needed but I am curious how nutrients can be added without an outside source.

You have to have an outside source (fertilizer or poultry litter) or a legume to add nitrogen. Legumes are big users of phosphorus so you usually haveto add that precious commodity until you get your levels built up.

 

[Bluestem]

I would disagree that proper grazing does not improve the fertility of the soil.

How does a cow put more nutrients into the soil then is removed by the forage she eats?

Lets see if I can stick my foot in my mouth . When a 1100# steer leaves the farm he will take with him less than- 10# of N, 6# of P , 8# of K plus numerous micro nutrients. So we are mining our farm every time a steer leaves.
But the steer also left behind close to 5 tons of manure. 75% of that manure was made up of microbes from the rumen ( a large fermentation vat). The life cycle of those microbes will more than make up for the loss of the nutrients of that steer. Studies have shown more P in the soil after microbe life was added. The researchers could not explain the increase. There is a lot going on under our feet that we do not understand or even know about. We need to understand the natural cycle we are operating under and try to work with it. Not constantly fighting it. Do I know anyone there yet? No. Did I get my point across? I tried.
Here is a link which touches surface.
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/nutcycle.html#con
Our long term survival as cattleman/farmers and the the human race for that matter will depend on understanding the system we are operating under.
I'm hiding behind my target. You folks can start shooting

 

[nap]

Bluestem thanks for the great link! I certainly am not going to be taking any shots at you. The figures on nutrient turn-back via manure and urine are very encouraging and are similar to other figures I have seen. Using MIG and giving pastures suitable periods of rest should solve a lot of the nutrient loss problems. With the cost of fertilizer, not to mention fuel costs, doesn't this approach make a lot of sense? It may fly in the face of some old school thinking but this approach may keep our heads above water in the face of rising costs. In other words maybe it is time to start thinking outside the box.

 

[denoginnizer]

I think you can go without hay if it rains on the fescue and you keep your stocking rate around 10 head. No need to do mig . just keep the stocking rate at around 10 head. I would pull all the animals off now. put them back around dec 1.
If profit was my goal I wouldnt try this at all.

 

[dun]

Bluestem-Interesting reading.

 

[dun]

I think you can go without hay if it rains on the fescue and you keep your stocking rate around 10 head. No need to do mig . just keep the stocking rate at around 10 head. I would pull all the animals off now. put them back around dec 1.
If profit was my goal I wouldnt try this at all.

The problem is that each area has different requirements based on soil, flora and climate. We practice MIG, but with our soil types, i.e. rock and heavy clay the pastures don;t respond as well as those with better soil types. It could be too that the farms we've worked with had all ben neglected and abused for so many years before we got them that 5-10 years may not be enough time. But making a silk purse from a sows ear may not be practical anyway.

 

[nap]

I think you can go without hay if it rains on the fescue and you keep your stocking rate around 10 head. No need to do mig . just keep the stocking rate at around 10 head. I would pull all the animals off now. put them back around dec 1.
If profit was my goal I wouldnt try this at all.

Actually I plan in taking about 80 head through the winter. Enjoy that 2nd cutting and getting hay to your cows this winter when it is about 40 degrees and raining. I know that is how your daddy and granddaddy did it so it must be the only way. I will let you know in the spring how things went on our ranch.

 

[denoginnizer]

When I first started raising cattle I was going to change everthing. I thought every old cattleman was a fool and there methods were antiquated. I have been doing this for about 6 years now and I have come to realize that many of the ol timers new alot more than I gave them credit for.
I do admire your will to try new methods and I hope you have success . Please keep us informed on your success or failure so we can continue to learn .