Getting started.

[Lon]

thank you i was thinking this about crossbreeding. least from what i have read. i assure you i have spent lots of time reading about different breeds and crossbreeding. only thing is most studies i have found are related to terminal sire for calves lbs produced wich is correct but have a hard time finding a study related to crossbreeding for replacement heifers. i will search the cross breading the lsot art though.
breeds i have looked at most as i think would work for me keeping in mind most poeple i have talked to about them are pure angus with the black on black on black spot now. but in my opinion i was thinking saler,angus,lim,and of course the longhorn because of cost of starting out. but first 3 breeds were mostly what i thought about. hereford at one time but one old boy told me to stay away cause will get pink eye and foot rot alot but for starting out buy old skinny hereford put wieght on them through winter preg check calve out and sell what ever isnt preg once have weight on them. said between what make off selling old cows and the calves would get should pay cows off in first year. than cross with angus. only thing i dont know alot about buying skinny cows putting weight on them and then reselling them. not as much as i do about running pairs anyway. i have also thought about some sim influence but have been told will through a huge calf and me personally aint to wild about the idea of huge calves. pulled alot of char sired calves with nuthing but a horse rope and corner post. dont enjoy it. but i never read alot about sim myself. so main thought was saler, angus or limousine starting off if could afford it. than a cross from there with nothing but replaicements in mind. anybody have any inputs on these there cattle. also with replacements in mind wanting low input cattle as i know not everyone will agree with it but in my honest opinion starting that tractor costs alot of money the less i start it the better. less calving problems the better. also wife goes to school so live 200 miles away from were would be running cattle for a few more years. now it would be right by my dad though and he would be watching them for me. this is another reason for wanting more rangy cattle

 

[Brandonm22]

This is a little bit of a contrarian opinion. Have we stopped to look at what feeder calves are actually bringing? An 1100 black baldie commercial cow is going to cost you a pretty penny right now but what is the difference in the long run?

In AL last week http://marketnews.usda.gov/gear/browseb ... _LS146.TXT
616 lb med and large muscle grade 1 steers were bringing $1.2088 a pound. That is a payday of $747 a head (gross). Using those numbers, a quality commercial cow over ten years is going to gross you $7470 + $651 when you sell her by the pound or $8097.

A commercial Longhorn cow will cost you less now, but her calves are going to be lighter and they are going to be lighter muscled. Using last week's Alabama numbers, 571 lb Med and Large muscle grade 3 steers were bringing $1.1362 a lb or $648.77 per calf. After ten years the 900 lb Longhorn cow is going to gross you $6487.70 + $531 or $7018.7.

Using today's beef prices (and I know how dangerous that is) the advantage toward the conventional beef cow is $1078.3 per cow without factoring in that her daughters should be more productive cows themselves, her calves are more likely to qualify for additional premiums in other marketing channels, and you wouldn't spend half of your working life breeding up to AVERAGE. And in that scenario I think I was being awfully generous to the Longhorn cows around here when I suggested they were only getting beat by 45 lbs by a black baldie when bred to the same bull. I know of local LH herds around here (granted they are in the pasture art/rodeo biz) that couldn't come within 100 lbs of weaning what a good conventional beef cow does. I know I am making some BOLD assumptions with the math here but my math paying $300 more per cow now on the frontend will pay generous returns going forward............especially since you have 4000 going on 8000 acres here.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Seen a many a longhorn cow wean a heavy a calf as any thing else when bred ro a limi or char bull. Still think the best cross would be limi,char, or a hereford.

 

[Lon]

well it finally warmed up a little outside here. woke up to 0 felt mighty good. now if i do go longhorn from what almost everyone told me a limi bull bred on them is one i should look at. well i think that is what i might do. my dad says a sim angus bull or shorthorn bull keep replacements. talked to my cousin he runs a few cattle. he said he has part angus and other half are longhorns. he went half and half for stating out to keep the capital cost down when starting. said yup that first year calves you can tell they got longhorn in them. they will take a hit when selling but he never has takin such a huge hit that he should load them all up. said bred to black sim bull kept replacements and them half longhorn half sim replacements raise a calf that kept up with his angus cattle. he sells when weaning. said he is gonna get a simangus bull for his angus now but as he stands right now everyone of them half sim half longhorn calves he will keep for replacements and breed back to them angus bulls cause the calves with only a 1/4 longhorn didnt take a hit when sold them. also said when wintering them half longhorn cows he just dumps some cake out and they do the rest unless it gets real bad out. so input cost on them year to year saves him alot in feed and fuel going out there. Any takes on this.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

As the old saying goes "You can lead a horse to water but - - -"

DOC HARRIS

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Drinking some of the stuff thats sold around here will put a man in the poor house Doc.

 

[Boss Cowman]

I have always thought if I had it to do over again I might start with longhorns and breed em with gelbvieh bulls and retain the heifers. Don't fool yourself about the longhorns ability to wean a good calf, I have two of the miserable things and they shock me every year. Then again you could start out with some short term baldie cows and by retaining heifers, get your herd were you want it in a shorter amount of time. If you do that the cull cow income through the years will offset lost calf income more or less. I'd probably opt for the later, but it's your time and money.

 

[Lon]

well your right ya can lead a horse to water on other hand i'll go right back to the 2+2=5 bit like i said earlier. ;-) but thanks for the cross breeding bit to search stayed up all that night reading few times over was some interesting stuff in there.

cull cows now i was told by an old boy just south of us in neb. to buy short light weight culls put weight on in winter and then sell whatever doesnt calve. only thing with that is like i said i dont know to much bout the buying and selling of them skinny cows. does anyone got much experience with that?

 

[3waycross]

This is a little bit of a contrarian opinion. Have we stopped to look at what feeder calves are actually bringing? An 1100 black baldie commercial cow is going to cost you a pretty penny right now but what is the difference in the long run?

In AL last week http://marketnews.usda.gov/gear/browseb ... _LS146.TXT
616 lb med and large muscle grade 1 steers were bringing $1.2088 a pound. That is a payday of $747 a head (gross). Using those numbers, a quality commercial cow over ten years is going to gross you $7470 + $651 when you sell her by the pound or $8097.

A commercial Longhorn cow will cost you less now, but her calves are going to be lighter and they are going to be lighter muscled. Using last week's Alabama numbers, 571 lb Med and Large muscle grade 3 steers were bringing $1.1362 a lb or $648.77 per calf. After ten years the 900 lb Longhorn cow is going to gross you $6487.70 + $531 or $7018.7.

Using today's beef prices (and I know how dangerous that is) the advantage toward the conventional beef cow is $1078.3 per cow without factoring in that her daughters should be more productive cows themselves, her calves are more likely to qualify for additional premiums in other marketing channels, and you wouldn't spend half of your working life breeding up to AVERAGE. And in that scenario I think I was being awfully generous to the Longhorn cows around here when I suggested they were only getting beat by 45 lbs by a black baldie when bred to the same bull. I know of local LH herds around here (granted they are in the pasture art/rodeo biz) that couldn't come within 100 lbs of weaning what a good conventional beef cow does. I know I am making some BOLD assumptions with the math here but my math paying $300 more per cow now on the frontend will pay generous returns going forward............especially since you have 4000 going on 8000 acres here.

Not arguing with your math or your reasoning but, I would like to point out that those longhorn cows will do all that on a lot less inputs than the baldies. I have a friend who is one of the top Longhorn operations in Colo and sells a whole lot of Longhorn freezer beef, who feeds them like british cows and the resulting calves are nothing short of spectacular. I can only guess what they would look like if he was to cross those same cows with a Char, GV, or Limi bull. BTW he takes very few hits at the sale barn since all he sells there are his old cull cows.
to me at least the reasoning would be that if you are going to raise niche cattle then you need to market them that way. They sell seedstock and longhorn beef. It works for them, that doesn't mean it works for everyone.

 

[EAT BEEF]

Cows are to high to buy right now IMO ever think about running somebodys cows for a % of calfcrop.

 

[Brandonm22]

Not arguing with your math or your reasoning but, I would like to point out that those longhorn cows will do all that on a lot less inputs than the baldies. I have a friend who is one of the top Longhorn operations in Colo and sells a whole lot of Longhorn freezer beef, who feeds them like british cows and the resulting calves are nothing short of spectacular. I can only guess what they would look like if he was to cross those same cows with a Char, GV, or Limi bull. BTW he takes very few hits at the sale barn since all he sells there are his old cull cows.
to me at least the reasoning would be that if you are going to raise niche cattle then you need to market them that way. They sell seedstock and longhorn beef. It works for them, that doesn't mean it works for everyone.

I understand the need for a moderate framed easy keeping commercial cow for this scenario. I am not suggesting 1500 lb high performance high maintenance cows here; but this is an existing ranch of 4000 acres in South Dakota (I think) not some desert in South Texas or New Mexico. I don't think you are really going to save that much on input costs with the Longhorn versus a moderate framed Ohlde/Pharo type Angus.

There is nothing wrong with niche markets. If you want to sell Longhorn seedstock or specialty beef great, but Lon here has plenty of land. His time is the limiting factor in his enterprise as he lives far away and has a new baby and a wife in school. I don't see where he has the time to be delivering bulls or sides of beef to clients. While he builds this herd up from scratch, his cattle are a lot more likely to enter the conventional supply chain (where over 80% of beef are sold) which normally discounts Longhorn cross cattle just because they can.

Secondly, he is building up his herd which means keeping most of the heifers for replacements for when his Uncle retires in 5 years. If he is crossing those cheap Longhorn cows to Gelbviehs or Charolais (as some on this string have suggested) in 7 or 8 years he is going to have a herd that is composed of straight Longhorn cows, 50:50 Longhorn x Charolais (substitute your favorite beef breed here) cows, and 25:75 Longhorn x Charolais cows. Each of those groups are going to have different maintenance and input requirements. If they are all in the same herd, he will have to wind up maintaining his Longhorn commercial cows just like their 3/4 Charolais 2-3 year old granddaughters so that those young cows get enough nutrition.......those defeating the low input advantage to the Longhorns early on in this venture.

I am not arrogant enough to suggest that I am right and Lon and everybody else in this string is wrong. I am just throwing out thoughts.

 

[3waycross]

I don't think you are wrong at all. I was essentially doing the same thing.

 

[Lon]

If he is crossing those cheap Longhorn cows to Gelbviehs or Charolais (as some on this string have suggested) in 7 or 8 years he is going to have a herd that is composed of straight Longhorn cows, 50:50 Longhorn x Charolais (substitute your favorite beef breed here) cows, and 25:75 Longhorn x Charolais cows. Each of those groups are going to have different maintenance and input requirements. If they are all in the same herd, he will have to wind up maintaining his Longhorn commercial cows just like their 3/4 Charolais 2-3 year old granddaughters so that those young cows get enough nutrition.......those defeating the low input advantage to the Longhorns early on in this venture.

this is true. 7 years though i think i might have the fullblood longhorns worked out by than. i am talking bout starting with 50 head and going from there. as far as how they all get ran would run them the same as do every other cow take care of. turn them out to pasture. come winter time throw out some cake and rest comes from grazing, long as its not covered by a hard snow. only feed hay when calving or when there is a foot of snow on the ground. less snow if it is got a hard crust till they start getting it broke up. calving wise last year calved in a pasture that consisted of 1280 acres for my uncle. if it is real cold for a long while will throw out lick tubs. other than that all really do is just ride threw them every week taking count and making sure nothing sick. if cow has problem calving she usually has to get roped tied to corner post and calf pulled from there. uncle has a nice chute but on dads place there isnt one. and uncles chute only gets used to band bull a bull calf that was missed here and there when calving.

 

[dun]

7 years though i think i might have the fullblood longhorns worked out by than.

If they are so profitable, why would you want to get rid of them?

 

[Lon]

7 years though i think i might have the fullblood longhorns worked out by than.

If they are so profitable, why would you want to get rid of them?

if ya check back in the beginning im willing to bet you can find somewhere it was said that i was thinking bout using them to get started as they we alot less to buy and if used them how should breed them for replacements. ;-)

 

[dun]

7 years though i think i might have the fullblood longhorns worked out by than.

If they are so profitable, why would you want to get rid of them?

if ya check back in the beginning im willing to bet you can find somewhere it was said that i was thinking bout using them to get started as they we alot less to buy and if used them how should breed them for replacements. ;-)

Correct, but why replace them just use a terminal bull on them

 

[Lon]

well from what i am getting out of this if i do start with longhorns than will breed to lim bull. 7 or 8 years down the road i am going out on a limb here but willing to bet that they will be getting up there in age a ways and if i got the replacements i want out of them than why not replace them with a younger cow that will do it on her own a little better.

 

[dun]

well from what i am getting out of this if i do start with longhorns than will breed to lim bull. 7 or 8 years down the road i am going out on a limb here but willing to bet that they will be getting up there in age a ways and if i got the replacements i want out of them than why not replace them with a younger cow that will do it on her own a little better.

So then buy some more longhorn cows

 

[Lon]

why though the purpose of buying them to start would be the price of 400$ compared to 1300$ for angus or saler. i would prefer the saler though. once i am stalked with replacements out of them that i would want and they are paid off then they served thier purpose for what i wanted them for. the whole thing is a matter of starting up with as little capital as possible.

 

[EAT BEEF]

Just wait a little while you'll be able to buy cows cheaper than $1,300.