Getting started.

[Lon]

new here. few questions looking for honest answers. i would need a rangy type of cow. i am thinking saler but because of financing might start with longhorns and breed up to what i would like from there. what type of cattle would you all suggest for central south dakota. it does get cold here. does anyone have expeirence with a saler longhorn cross. also not wanting an argument from anyone that wants to fight about cheating cattle buyers with longhorns. would start with them cause they are cheap and rangey. but do prefer salers. i know angus is what sells and every one has them but prefer something with a little more do it on her own than that. have salers calmed down any or are do they still teach the deer how to run and jump and the wolves how to fight? i guess just from begining what do you all think i should start with. i do want to start small and go from there keeping all replacement heifers till have what would work best. thank you all for the time.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Ain't nothing wrong with starting with a longhorn. Another thread going right now on the subject.

 

[hillbilly1234]

did you ever think about highland cattle they are a hardy and healthy animal for cold weather

 

[Lon]

never did give a thought to highland cattle. dont hear of to many around here. reason thought of longhorns are cause you can find them tough animal and are cheaper way to start. otherwise like said partial to saler or saler angus cross cause only own a few cattle and they are salers, and take in angus. one saler cow is 16 and bred to same bulls that guy breeds angus to but she will throw a ncie black calf that outgrows his even with cows half the age and she stays in condition better. highland do they do good with heat as well. we get 90 degree in summer for awhile and 0 or colder alot in winter. windy every day.

 

[Lon]

honestly never did think of highland cattle. aint many round here that i know. high 80s low 90 isnt uncommon in summer time 0 or below isnt uncommon in winter windy all the time no matter what. would the highlands handle the heat as well as the cold. reason thought longhorns is can find them they are an inexpensive way to get started and get good bulls with the thought of replacements in mind. but at one time could get bred longhorns for 400 wich made them easy to want to start with now looking at 800 for what can find in area. but anything else is still alot higher and no matter wich way went would still be wanting to breed with replacements in mind.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Look at horned Herefords and leave the horns on if your worried about wolves.

 

[Lon]

haha not worried about wolves sorry was refearing to the way them salers could get on the fight once in a corral of if they just decided u were in their way. havent been around alot of them(salers) for little over 10 years but when was i remember they could outrun a fast horse jump a 6ft corral and if they didnt want you around them they sure let you know.

 

[Jake]

Unless your wanting to breed purely for novelty leave the idea of breeding up from longhorns on the drawing board and come up with something else. There is no reason to breed them up when you can start out with good cattle in the first place. Horned Herefords are a good start. I wouldn't count out angus as there are a lot of good rangy angus out there. There are some good Salers out there that are very quiet.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Lots of folks will tell you not to use the LH but ain't none of them gonna sell you any thing any better as cheap.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

It sounds to me that you are just bouncing around with a hobby, and not thinking very much about your ultimate future in the Beef Business. It also strikes me that you have NOT studied the Beef Production Protocols that are necessary for your being a success in the Beef Business. Your "breeding up" idea will cost you about 20 years before you can look at your cattle and say, "Yes, that is what I had in mind 20 years ago, but I am too old to change now - to what I SHOULD have done 20 years ago. " My advice to you is - Take a year or so and learn what you should really do to be profitable and satisfied with your decisions.

THEN - buy some cows - and do it right!

DOC HARRIS

 

[TexasBred]

Thanks Doc. In my mind you don't breed a longhorn up...you just breed whatever you're crossing them with "down". There will always be the occasional good one but that occasional one won't keep you in business long.

 

[Lon]

your right longhorns arent as good as other cattle. are they my first choice no. but i only see one person that understands why i said starting with longhorns because of price as there arent cattle that are better that you can buy cheaper. i asked what you think would be a good way to start with not what you think of longhorns as i already know anyone that runs commercial cows will hate them. as far as 20 years from now your right i will say i wish i was to this point 20 years ago but let me ask you to look at where you are at and ask do you not wish you were there 20 years ago. a year or 2 from now cows will still cost money to start up and longhorns will still be cheaper. its a question about the best way to start and that is considdering financing as well cause yes longhorns raise a smaller calf i will not argue that point but there is also the fact that it is less than a 1/3 of the start up cost. and if i started with the cows i want right now i can still garuntee 20 years from now i will still say man i wish 20 years ago i was where i am now cause isnt that the point of being in the ranching business. always trying to get better and improve something. not change it but just improve it feed effiency lbs weaned per acre disposition. as everyone knows ranching isnt a get rich business and if you are gonna start in it with nothing as i am it better be because you like cattle and horses and the work in general not cause of anything else. profit helps without it you cant run but starting up cost money as well. so i understand if you hate longhorns thats great i figured that much but than instead of saying dont do that take a year and learn the business than how bout you say what it is you would start with and why. if i wanted people to say dont do it i would ask every 80 year old rancher in the country what they think i asked here because i am hoping to get real honest good advice from poeple who know the business and know what it is like to start without someone handing it over to you first.

 

[Lon]

Lots of folks will tell you not to use the LH but ain't none of them gonna sell you any thing any better as cheap

thank you for the comment as far as i can see you underrstand what i am asking so, again question isnt what you feel about longhorns it is i am looking for something a little rangy wondering if saler were calmed down any as have been only round angus and if starting where i am at what would you suggest and have thought about longhorn pros and cons all there they are cheaper and once paid off can start getting better cattle wiether buying or breeding up to them.



and yes if you put a better bull on a longhorn you are breeding them up not just the bull down otherwise people wouldnt be buying bulls to improve the faults of there cattle they would buy all new cattle in that sense.

 

[Lon]

and to be profitable please tell me if i have this wrong. there are breeds in every area that work good there but not someplace else. there are also breeds that produce more profit than other breeds and there is just as much differnce inside alot of breeds as difference from one breed to another.

but profit will be not how much lbs of calf or sold and what they bring. profit will be deifined by what is left over after my ecpenses "wich will be not just pastire machinery fuel vaccines etc etc but also on top of that what my LOAN would cost to pay and INTEREST on all this." after all that i can pay taxes on it and every other expense left. biggest thing though would be pasture and feeding costs in winter and a loan payment. whats left than is my profit. more lbs helps alot but the way i see it is a cow thats 400 is easier to pay off than a cow that is 1300. is it ideal no but is it doable without losing money yes if not there would be alot of longhorns and other breeds shot out in the pasture and left because there is absolutly no way to turn a profit on them.

 

[Smokey Bull]

You know what(?), Lon...Sounds like you have some background from "before" in cattle. I would say "go with your gut and comfort level". It's your land and money. There are several ways to make cattle pay just keep asking questions and exploring other avenues for marketing your production...you'll find an outlet. In the end, it is ALL about overhead or lack thereof. (of course, I am the "county nut" where I live, so my advise comes with a warning label) :cboy:

 

[Lon]

advice with a warning label now that i like but have to say that goes for every bit of advice i ever heard good and bad. background here well grew up raising cattle learning every bit from my dad. great guy. done never wantted nothing but to ranch myself but he said go to college and get a job give it a try for me. so i did, started with prelaw major switched to double business major. couldve paid alot more attention though. got offered real good promotion in job but decided waking up and putting that tie on every morning was killing me and was time to go back to what i wanted. bought a chain bed stack mover truck you want to learn mechanics get yourself one of them. right now though were i stand is recently got enrolled so now can get range units for 18 month to run pairs on wich is pretty good when most people wanting $30 to summer and no one can take the unit away from me once i got it. 5 years from now uncle want to retire so since only kid thats wants to ranch he says will sell his 4000 acres to me on lease to own no interest and pay what can offord as long as stays in family since was his dads place split between him and my dad. now when my dad quits which will be awhile i get to run on that place as well although not as much as uncle will get and 3 years from now grandpa will be all but done and him and my mom got a unit for another 150 head year round wich i get rights to run on. Far as i see i am standing in the perfect place to say i better get started on a herd. now i love learning things the hard way till i figured out everyone in world can teach me something and that even includes my 5 month old son.
so thats why i am here reading as much and asking all questions i can from all you guys that have a wealth of knowledge and if am lucky enough i can absorb half of it and pass on to my son before im gone. but i also learned that arguing aint worth nuthing cause some people are gonna tell you 2+2=5 and darn it it 5 and nothin no one can say will ever change that. all really looking for is all the knowledge i can get so i can make a decision on best way to start. not meaning best darn cattle money can buy cause dont have that money i mean best way economically to get started. and so far have gotten some real good messages in the email and would like to thank those poeple for thier knowledge in thier answers cause i tell you know one is more gratfull for that chance to "teach me something i dont have to learn the hard wa" than i am.

 

[Smokey Bull]

Well, you want lots of experience and knowledge...this board is it. Been on here a short while, myself, and have found everyone here to be willing to give their opinion and share knowledge...Regardless of breed preferences, I can assure you that everyone here will be pulling for you...me included!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Lon-

After reading the posts that you have posted here on this thread, the very best advice that I can offer to you is: go BACK and read my first post to you - VERY SLOWLY and VERY CAREFULLY! Then, after you have thought about what you read - go back and read it again!

...and bear in mind, the word Longhorn did not appear one time in the post! Nor did Saler. Nor did Angus, nor Hereford, nor any OTHER breed name. The important factor for you to establish in your mind BEFORE you start to rush out and buy anything is - LEARN! Learn what you really want to buy, how to buy, when to buy, where to buy, and WHY to buy! By then you may know IF you are going to buy. There are better ways to lose your money than by throwing it down a rat hole!

By the way, Welcome to the Forum! There are a lot of people here from whom you may learn the BASICS of Beef Production, whichever breed you may decide to embrace.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Lon]

well there Doc i hand it to you ya sure didnt say anything about a specific breed. just assumed since you said something bout breeding up was a waste and the whole 20 year bit that you were talking bout longhorns cause i said buy longhorns and start breeding up from there cause of thier low input cost. If i took that post wrong i do apologize and admit should have read it closer and do appreciate any input you have.

round here alot of people breed black(angus) on black on black and there is nothing more they would think bout using. i do believe myself in a comercial herd that a crossbred cow, bearing in mind the breeds that are cross bred comliment each other, would outperfrom that straight angus cow. also in the end no matter what your calf has to work good when it finally makes it to getting turned to meat even if your sell at weighning. cause poor performance cattle buyers will remember. so wont this cross bred calf give better result from start all the way to finish over just a straight angus calf ? or am i in the wrong thinking here. not talking longhorn cross just a cross bred comercial herd in general.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

well there Doc i hand it to you ya sure didnt say anything about a specific breed. just assumed since you said something bout breeding up was a waste and the whole 20 year bit that you were talking bout longhorns cause i said buy longhorns and start breeding up from there cause of thier low input cost. If i took that post wrong i do apologize and admit should have read it closer and do appreciate any input you have.

round here alot of people breed black(angus) on black on black and there is nothing more they would think bout using. i do believe myself in a comercial herd that a crossbred cow, bearing in mind the breeds that are cross bred comliment each other, would outperfrom that straight angus cow. also in the end no matter what your calf has to work good when it finally makes it to getting turned to meat even if your sell at weighning. cause poor performance cattle buyers will remember. so wont this cross bred calf give better result from start all the way to finish over just a straight angus calf ? or am i in the wrong thinking here. not talking longhorn cross just a cross bred comercial herd in general.

Lon-

I must caution you to be careful about what you assume. Not only did I NOT say anything about specific breeds, I did NOT say that "breeding up was a waste." I said that it took TIME, not a waste of time. Words mean things, and that is why it is absolutely critically important that you read EVERYTHING carefully so that the true meaning comes through completely!

Concerning "crossbreeding" cattle, and the advantages and disadvantages of that particular breeding plan - Scott Greiner, PhD., at Virginia Tech said it is one of the "oldest and most fundamental principles to reducing costs and enhancing productivity." You are certainly correct about that basic principle of beef production. Crossbreeding beef cattle offers two primary advantages relative to the use of only one breed - it combines the strengths of the various breeds used to form the cross, and crossbred animals exhibit heterosis, or hybrid vigor, which refers to the superiority in performance of the crossbred animal compared to the average of the straightbred parents.

Delving into the intricacies of understanding all of the factors involved in beef cattle breeding requires EXTENSIVE study and learning in order to perform the necessary activities and breeding selection methods in making the optimal selection choices of the INDIVIDUAL breeding pairs, both in straightbred breeding, and crossbreeding protocols. In order for ANY cattle breeding program to be successful, strict detailed attention must be paid to the Phenotype, Genotype, and Functional Traits of the chosen bulls and cows of the mating decisions whether they are purebred, crossbred, or somewhere in between. Concentrated attention to those factors will save the cattle producer years and years of time, untold numbers of dollars, and hours of grief and agony!

Focusing on the above-mentioned Phenotype, Genotype and Functional Traits of your seedstock is more critical and important than the particular breed(s) of cattle that you select to raise. The breed on which you decide is YOUR choice. The quality of the seedstock you select and the care and management protocols that you employ in raising them will dictate whether you are satisfied with the results you achieve, or whether you go broke and out of business in the near future.

In your particular circumstances, I highly recommend that you study, learn and employ Crossbreeding methods in your management plans. . . . And a careful study of cattle breeds is mandatory before you make a decision about seedstock. I recommend that you go to http://www.dogpile.com or Google and [search] for "Beef Cattle Breeds" and "Crossbreeding- The Lost Art?" Lots of good reading and Luck to you Lon.

Here is a link to get your blood circulating and your ideas perking!
http://www.angusbeefbulletin.com/extra/ ... bulls.html

DOC HARRIS