Genetics vs Phenotype

[aplusmnt]

How much weight does genetics carry in bull selection. Say you have Bull that is out of the Best and proven cow you could hope for and out of a great and proven bull. What are the chances a bull raised from these two parents would be a good bull even if he was not the most desirable in his appearance?

Is it probable that his proven genetics could make him a good bull even if he did not look the part of a perfect bull.

Basically how does good Phenotype do vs good genetics?

 

[msscamp]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but it is my understanding that the phenotype should reflect the genetics via conformation and how the bull looks. A poorly conformed bull can pass his defects onto his progeny, and should not be kept for that reason - regardless of the genetics.

 

[EAT BEEF]

How much weight does genetics carry in bull selection. Say you have Bull that is out of the Best and proven cow you could hope for and out of a great and proven bull. What are the chances a bull raised from these two parents would be a good bull even if he was not the most desirable in his appearance?

Is it probable that his proven genetics could make him a good bull even if he did not look the part of a perfect bull.

Basically how does good Phenotype do vs good genetics?

Do you mean his structure or is he a poor preformer?
I guess you could have a linebreed bull that is not the same in performance as his outcrossed contemparies suit your purpose.If he is a real dink maybe the bull or cow is not as proven or great as you think.

 

[aplusmnt]

How much weight does genetics carry in bull selection. Say you have Bull that is out of the Best and proven cow you could hope for and out of a great and proven bull. What are the chances a bull raised from these two parents would be a good bull even if he was not the most desirable in his appearance?

Is it probable that his proven genetics could make him a good bull even if he did not look the part of a perfect bull.

Basically how does good Phenotype do vs good genetics?

Do you mean his structure or is he a poor preformer?
I guess you could have a linebreed bull that is not the same in performance as his outcrossed contemparies suit your purpose.If he is a real dink maybe the bull or cow is not as proven or great as you think.

Structure.

Say cow A has had 5 bull calves out of the same Bull. 4 out of 5 of them bulls are excellent phenotype and when you look at them you say that is a keeper. But the 5th bull maybe does not have enough bone, and just does not have that great look that you look for when deciding to cut or keep a bull he does not have the same quality phenotype of his previous brothers. Would the 5th bull likely be just as good of bull in raising quality calves as the other 4 since he has the same genetics even though he does not have that same great look?

 

[dun]

Say cow A has had 5 bull calves out of the same Bull. 4 out of 5 of them bulls are excellent phenotype and when you look at them you say that is a keeper. But the 5th bull maybe does not have enough bone, and just does not have that great look that you look for when deciding to cut or keep a bull he does not have the same quality phenotype of his previous brothers. Would the 5th bull likely be just as good of bull in raising quality calves as the other 4 since he has the same genetics even though he does not have that same great look?

I can address this from the cow side of things. We have a cow that has alwasy been bred to the same bull. The steers have alwasy been exception and the heifers have been great milkers and raise exceptional calves. That is until 2 years ago. Her heifer from that year hasn;t grown out, and doesn;t have diddly for milk and other then color characteristics doesn;t look to be realated to the other calves or even from the cow.

 

[novatech]

A seed stock producer should cull it. It is bringing some bad genetics forward. Getting rid of the bad charicteristics is what culling is all about.
Phenotype is a result of genetics.

Phenotype This is the "outward, physical manifestation" of the organism. These are the physical parts, the sum of the atoms, molecules, macromolecules, cells, structures, metabolism, energy utilization, tissues, organs, reflexes and behaviors; anything that is part of the observable structure, function or behavior of a living organism.

Genotype This is the "internally coded, inheritable information" carried by all living organisms. This stored information is used as a "blueprint" or set of instructions for building and maintaining a living creature. These instructions are found within almost all cells (the "internal" part), they are written in a coded language (the genetic code), they are copied at the time of cell division or reproduction and are passed from one generation to the next ("inheritable"). These instructions are intimately involved with all aspects of the life of a cell or an organism. They control everything from the formation of protein macromolecules, to the regulation of metabolism and synthesis.

 

[Caustic Burno]

How much weight does genetics carry in bull selection. Say you have Bull that is out of the Best and proven cow you could hope for and out of a great and proven bull. What are the chances a bull raised from these two parents would be a good bull even if he was not the most desirable in his appearance?

Is it probable that his proven genetics could make him a good bull even if he did not look the part of a perfect bull.

Basically how does good Phenotype do vs good genetics?

Aplus this goes back to the numbers on the piece of paper are new last 40 years. You are dealing with DNA since the begining of time. EPD's are a tool that has beeen developed to help and have they are still just in there infancy compared to the DNA we are dealing with. We have came a long way in the last 40 years as there are a lot less anomolies than before. The only way to deal with them is cull.

 

[Frankie]

How much weight does genetics carry in bull selection. Say you have Bull that is out of the Best and proven cow you could hope for and out of a great and proven bull. What are the chances a bull raised from these two parents would be a good bull even if he was not the most desirable in his appearance?

Is it probable that his proven genetics could make him a good bull even if he did not look the part of a perfect bull.

Basically how does good Phenotype do vs good genetics?

We breed for performance and pounds. Every animal carrys thousands of genetic markers. When you breed that cow to a bull, the calf gets half his genetic merit from each. I'm sure you know families with several kids where one kid is smaller than the rest of the family, or a red head in a family of blonds, or a six footer in a family of five footers. Any way you want to cut it, breeding is a crap shoot.

BUT in our experience, if you use bulls with generations of performance genetics on cows with generations of perfomrance genetics behind them, you have a smaller chance of getting a dud, though you will get some.

We've stopped using some bulls that we just didn't like the looks of their calves and we stopped using a bull that gave us attractive calves. So we do pay some attention to phenotype. Most bull buyers that we've delt with wanted a sound, fertile, big bull. Some of them shied away from bulls if we told them he were sired by the "Grand Champion at xxxxx".

Don't buy a bull that you don't want to look at. I've never seen a "perfect bull."

 

[KNERSIE]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but it is my understanding that the phenotype should reflect the genetics via conformation and how the bull looks. A poorly conformed bull can pass his defects onto his progeny, and should not be kept for that reason - regardless of the genetics.

You are not wrong, infact you're spot on.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Would the 5th bull likely be just as good of bull in raising quality calves as the other 4 since he has the same genetics even though he does not have that same great look?

Just because offspring are full siblings does not mean they have the same genetics. Only identical twins would have the same genetics.

 

[angus9259]

I'd cull anything with a structural deficiency regardless of where it came from even if it was going to be a terminal cow or bull. There's too much good stuff out there to mess around with anything structurally questionable. By that I mean feet, legs, hips, etc.

 

[Cowdirt]

Genetics vs Phenotype ---- I would say "bof um". Too many bulls out there to choose from.

 

[Wild Cattle]

Never, ever, use a bull with any weakness in his phenotype. I don't care how he is breed, if he has a bad phenotype he has bad genes, period.

In my mine genitics and phenotype are the same thing. Full brothers do not have the same genes, they can produce very different looking, and doing, calves, even then they
"are" the same phenotype... This is the biggest problem I see in the cattle business today, People either don't know or don't care about what is "correct phenotype" for their breed or purpose. The worst thing that has happened is that todays younger generation has learned to pick cattle by the EPD numbers alone...whitch is a tremendous mistake. I still believe that EPD numbers are very subjective and can not be counted on as the gospel truth. I hear on this board all the time "what are the EPD's". I think that is the last question that should be asked. I would use the EPD's only as a tie breaker after selecting for correct phenotype.

I see bulls for sale all the time that have good numbers and a bad phenotype. Black bulls with horable back legs and high flank "there is a genitic link there if you have not noticed" and back at the knees. Why on earth would a good breeder put those unsound genitics into his heard...Well he might not know better because he has been told that the EPD's are all that matter...and thats BS...And it is really hurting the cattle business today. EPD's are a great marketing tool for selling cattle that don't have a good phenotype to people that don't know any better.

Paul Teegardin

 

[AppalachCattle]

I agree exactly with Wild Cattle. EPD's are a tool, but shouldn't be the single decision making critera. I see bad looking bulls in breeders' ads and even in the AI catalogs. My esteemed Grandfather taught me never to buy a "calf bull." That is what he called a yearing bull. He always said they need to be at least 2 yrs old to see what they are going to become. I have made the mistake of buying yearings that turned out to be duds. Never again.

 

[SCRUBS620]

A seed stock producer should cull it. It is bringing some bad genetics forward. Getting rid of the bad charicteristics is what culling is all about.
Phenotype is a result of genetics.

Phenotype This is the "outward, physical manifestation" of the organism. These are the physical parts, the sum of the atoms, molecules, macromolecules, cells, structures, metabolism, energy utilization, tissues, organs, reflexes and behaviors; anything that is part of the observable structure, function or behavior of a living organism.

Genotype This is the "internally coded, inheritable information" carried by all living organisms. This stored information is used as a "blueprint" or set of instructions for building and maintaining a living creature. These instructions are found within almost all cells (the "internal" part), they are written in a coded language (the genetic code), they are copied at the time of cell division or reproduction and are passed from one generation to the next ("inheritable"). These instructions are intimately involved with all aspects of the life of a cell or an organism. They control everything from the formation of protein macromolecules, to the regulation of metabolism and synthesis.

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

Basically you would have to guess whether the #5 bull was of poor phenotype because of a bad set of genetics or because of some other environmental factor (i.e. his mother was ill during the time he was nursing, did he swallow something that chronically irritated his gut so he ate less while maturing, or was he born in an unusually cold, wet, or dry year, etc.). If it truely were just environmentally caused and not bad genetics, he would have comparable calves to his brothers (assuming the phenotypical defect did not prevent him from breeding successfully). That might be a costly guess though.

 

[aplusmnt]

To add some light to what made me think about this. I am real pleased with my herd bull and I have a particular cow that I like everything about her, she had a bull calf a few weeks back and I started wondering if maybe her calf could be my future herd bull in two years to replace the current one.

I realize that a lot of bulls should be cut that aren't and the odds of him being a bull prospect are 50/50. I would never keep a cull bull but wondered if he was average looking would his good genetics possibly carry him past one of them better looking bulls at some local bull sales.

Basically I know in the end only time will tell, but there was some good points I had not pondered over in regards the calf not having the exact genetics. And that any bad traits he could have could also come out in future generations.

I will just keep my eye on the calf and not band him just yet. Worse scenario is I cut him a little late.

 

[Wild Cattle]

You can almost allways buy better genitics than you can produce, buy the best quality bull you can affore, and you will not be sorry. Picking a great phenotype with great genitics is the key.....P.S. They are not always the high dollar bulls...

Paul T

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't even know why we are having this debate. If a bull has poor structure and/or conformation or does not have the phenotypic traits (height, length, guts, butt, performance, etc) that you desire for your herd or does not have acceptable (according to you) EPDs and pedigree then DON'T buy him. If the guy next door has two bulls with good EPDs that don't track well and two bulls that track well but have high birth wt EPDs and the worst IMF EPDs in the breed...and those ARE traits that matter to you, thank the guy for his time tell him what it is that you are not comfortable with (so he has the opportunity to improve next year) then get in your truck and drive someplace else. There are too many bull sales in this country and too many breeders hawking bulls to have to compromise your standards. You might have to spend 5 or 6 weekends sorting bulls, but if you keep back heifers one mistake is likely to impact your herd for 20 years. Likewise a TRUE herd improver is going to make you money for the next 20 years through his daughters and granddaughters.

 

[Aero]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but it is my understanding that the phenotype should reflect the genetics via conformation and how the bull looks. A poorly conformed bull can pass his defects onto his progeny, and should not be kept for that reason - regardless of the genetics.

You are not wrong, infact you're spot on.

phenotype is not only how the animals looks, it is also how he performs. phenotype is a reflection of genotype.

if you cull on pounds, that's based on phenotype. if you cull on looks (muscling, structure, etc), that's based on phenotype.

genotype is that particular calf's DNA. Genestar type testing comes closest to this but picks out such a small percentage of what's there that it's nearly pointless. (Ok, tenderness markers are nice...) to me, this illustrates Caustic Burno's point (the best point yet in this thread BTW).

using a pedigree is as much guessing at the genotype as using phenotype, except there is a little proof in phenotype. the calf is probably going to be somewhere between the sire and the dam. the less related the parents are, the wider the genetic gap.

If you start with parents from the same linebred strain, you can more easily predict the outcome. using common outcross breeding gives you a large gap. as you get the parents further apart, heterosis increases distorting phenotypical validation of parent stock (and diminishing prepotency of the calf).

In my opinion, if you are raising terminal calves, phenotype of calves should be more heavily weighted. If you are raising breeding stock, cull for below average outliers but dont put so much weight in above average phenotype. Ignore the above average traits and replace that weighting with pedigree.

Prepotency changes things a little. I have seen 2 bulls so far that really stamp their calves with something (good) that stands out to me: the Simmental bull CNS Dream On and the Aubrac bull Maximus. When I can pick out their calves from nearly any group, I know they have a better chance of transmitting the traits I like. Maximus by far is the best stamper I have seen. He has exceptional conformation, eye appeal (fit's my eye), and is much more likely to transmit the characteristics I want to see than any bull I have seen.

It pretty much comes down to using progeny tested bulls if available. After that, I want consistently linebred animals that are not outstanding for anything (other than efficiency). If I have to buy a yearling bull with modern outcrossed genetics, I better be raising terminal calves or get him pretty cheap.