MRRherefords
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I was wondering which Hereford bulls some of you guys had your cows Ai'd to this year and who you could see being big in the near future.
For my hereford friends
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wildcat2154
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Churchill red bull.
May use Excede this fall from Select Sires.
May use Excede this fall from Select Sires.
I used CL 1 Domino 215Z pretty heavily this year. I never liked him as a individual that much but he's breeding very well. He's out of a outstanding dam and cow family, has great numbers, but what really sold me was his daughters. They are flat good!
Sticking to the younger bulls that have at least some daughters in production. KCF Bennett Encore Z311 is going to be very prominent in a few years. His first daughters are just now in production and they're very impressive. I'll second Churchill red bull as another good cow maker. KT Built Tuff 1010 is looking to be an outstanding heifer bull and his calves have some real thickness to them. I bought a single daughter out of NJW Lux that's done such a great job that I've been considering using him myself next year, but I'm still on the fence.
I've got a cane of 215 sitting in the tank, but won't be using him until next season. The calves I've seen are good and I'm looking forward to having some of my own eventually.
I've got a cane of 215 sitting in the tank, but won't be using him until next season. The calves I've seen are good and I'm looking forward to having some of my own eventually.
MRRherefords
Well-known member
We used Encore this year. We are very excited about his calves for us.WRFarms":3hsqvu3p said:
In the past few years we have used:
KJ C&L J119 Logic 023R ET
MSU TCF Revolution 4R
Hyalite On Target 936
SHF York 19H Y02
And this year we are using FTF Prime Product 226Z for the first time. Of those sires above we have daughters in production by all but York. The Revolution daughters are some of my favorites and just about everyone that has daughters sired by him seem to say the same thing. They are ones that have always stood out and like most you probably would have to make us an offer we couldn't refuse to sell them. We raised 1 standout Revolution son out of a Logic cow that we sold to another Hereford breeder a few years ago but kept semen interest on him for in-herd use. The limited use we've used of him his daughters have been very impressive and the breeder who bought him we visited the other summer and they had some very nice sons by him, 1 they used as a yearling last year on about 15 females that I am curious to see how his calves turned out.
Our current herd sire is a 936 son we bred and we have 2 full sisters by 936 out of a Revolution dam of his as well. Both females so far are off to really good starts in production in our herd, 1 we kept a York son out of and are using him as a yearling on a small group of females this year. 936 really adds some muscle to the calves we think and the son we now have 2 calf crops by seems to be doing the same too. He moderates frame a bit from what we have seen and won't moderate them to be too small framed. The females milk well and have nice udder structure. After 3 breeding seasons we finally got our first York heifers this year but the bulls we have had the last 2 years have been growthy. The York son out of the 936 daughter we kept scanned a 16.1 REA and 3.04 IMF at his yearling BSE this spring with a 37 scrotal, excited to see how he grows out as a yearling this summer.
Came across the Prime Product bull this spring while looking for a new AI sire. He was on the national reference sire program on the Olsen so we like that he's been tested in that kind of program and really like the breeding on his dam's side that goes back to World Class and Enhancer 2D who we used AI a long time ago and had some productive females by.
KJ C&L J119 Logic 023R ET
MSU TCF Revolution 4R
Hyalite On Target 936
SHF York 19H Y02
And this year we are using FTF Prime Product 226Z for the first time. Of those sires above we have daughters in production by all but York. The Revolution daughters are some of my favorites and just about everyone that has daughters sired by him seem to say the same thing. They are ones that have always stood out and like most you probably would have to make us an offer we couldn't refuse to sell them. We raised 1 standout Revolution son out of a Logic cow that we sold to another Hereford breeder a few years ago but kept semen interest on him for in-herd use. The limited use we've used of him his daughters have been very impressive and the breeder who bought him we visited the other summer and they had some very nice sons by him, 1 they used as a yearling last year on about 15 females that I am curious to see how his calves turned out.
Our current herd sire is a 936 son we bred and we have 2 full sisters by 936 out of a Revolution dam of his as well. Both females so far are off to really good starts in production in our herd, 1 we kept a York son out of and are using him as a yearling on a small group of females this year. 936 really adds some muscle to the calves we think and the son we now have 2 calf crops by seems to be doing the same too. He moderates frame a bit from what we have seen and won't moderate them to be too small framed. The females milk well and have nice udder structure. After 3 breeding seasons we finally got our first York heifers this year but the bulls we have had the last 2 years have been growthy. The York son out of the 936 daughter we kept scanned a 16.1 REA and 3.04 IMF at his yearling BSE this spring with a 37 scrotal, excited to see how he grows out as a yearling this summer.
Came across the Prime Product bull this spring while looking for a new AI sire. He was on the national reference sire program on the Olsen so we like that he's been tested in that kind of program and really like the breeding on his dam's side that goes back to World Class and Enhancer 2D who we used AI a long time ago and had some productive females by.
MRRherefords
Well-known member
Great choices. Let me know how the Prime Product bull does for you. How expensive is the 4R semen getting nowadays?SPH":zlsqux7m said:
MRRherefords":3n73krdf said:
Not sure but I'm sure he's going to start getting more pricy in the coming years as the supply on him starts to dry up or people start to hoard the semen on him. I know that the other year Rausch said that Genex had a pretty good supply collected on him and I see that Reed Enterprises is selling him for $75 a straw which is still pretty reasonable since he is a non-cert AI sire. Hard to find good AI sires that you aren't spending over $100 total on between semen and certificate lately and 4R is much more proven than some of these young unproven bulls in the AI studs that are wanting premium prices right now so he's still a very affordable buy right now. I still see a lot of people using About Time and I'm not sure what semen on him is costing now but I know it was in upwards of $200 a straw the past couple years which just seems like a lot when you aren't guaranteed a conception on every service.
We just used the last straw we had of 4R this breeding season and don't plan to buy anymore as we have over 90 units in the tank on our 4R son and are at the point of having enough Revolution genetics in the herd we need to breed them to other bloodlines. Just did a look over our female inventory and of the 21 females we are breeding this year 4 are 4R daughters and 3 are daughters of our 4R son plus we have another daughter of him in this year's calf crop that is probably the best heifer in the pasture plus probably a few more of our females have 4R somewhere in their 3 generation pedigree.
MRRherefords
Well-known member
No doubt 4R is one of the best ever. May buy some from Reed this year. Our pedigrees are flooded with Durango 4037 and I would like to have more 4R in ours.
WalnutCrest
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75 - 100 / straw for semen for anything other than a flush seems petty spendy to me ...
Walnut, depends on how you are planning to use that semen. For a commercial breeder not registering the calves I'd agree that seems high but if you plan to register the calves as purebreds $75 for a proven non-certificate AI sire is pretty reasonable. Have you browsed through this year's AI book? https://issuu.com/buyhereford/docs/aibook17 There are some young and much less proven bulls in that who require $75-100 for a registration certificate on top of the semen costs so depending on the bull someone uses breeding a purebred you plan to register sired by some of those bulls are easily going to cost you over $100 for semen + certificate. We like using non-certificate sires if possible, 936 at $50 a straw as a non-certificate AI sire is probably one of the best buys out there I think.
Everyone has their different opinions on AI, I've always felt that if you are going to invest in AI you have to be reasonable with the amount you are spending on semen as well as doing your homework on the bulls you are considering and try to find bulls who are proven with daughters in production if possible. Buying direct from a breeder vs an AI stud also is preferable. If you have confidence and believe in the quality of cattle a breeder is raising you are going to be a lot more honest opinion of a bull and his progeny from the breeder than you will from an AI stud sales rep that didn't raise him or use him and is probably going to tell you whatever you want to hear in order to make a sale.
Everyone has their different opinions on AI, I've always felt that if you are going to invest in AI you have to be reasonable with the amount you are spending on semen as well as doing your homework on the bulls you are considering and try to find bulls who are proven with daughters in production if possible. Buying direct from a breeder vs an AI stud also is preferable. If you have confidence and believe in the quality of cattle a breeder is raising you are going to be a lot more honest opinion of a bull and his progeny from the breeder than you will from an AI stud sales rep that didn't raise him or use him and is probably going to tell you whatever you want to hear in order to make a sale.
MRRherefords
Well-known member
I agree with you totally. I have people pay me more money for Ai sired animals that are registered. I agree, if you are only doing commercial, it is not worth it.SPH":3olgnw8h said:
MRRherefords":1q8lbrr5 said:
Most of the commercial guys that buy bulls from us probably don't care if the sire was AI or not if I had to guess. They are more interested in how the bull himself looks and his performance plus his calving ease traits and we price them based on that more than who the bull is sired by. Those guys are mostly looking for bulls who are going to sire calves that make them money at the sale barn and in the feedlot so they probably are not going to be too caught up in following what are the hot AI bulls currently. We use AI to bring in new bloodlines because when you have a herd of about 20-25 females it doesn't take long to get too many daughters sired by your herd sire or other direct relation within the herd so we usually change herd bulls about every 3 to 4 years to keep from getting too closely related bloodlines on top of each other.
I wish they'd do away with AI certificates. There are some bulls out there that I'd love to try but there is no way we are paying $75-100 a certificate on top of semen that that costs as much as $50 a straw. I think if more guys would go the route of $50-75 a straw non-certificate bulls and offer discounts for commercial breeders who aren't going to be registering calves they'd get more volume of semen sales. The ones that are real head scratchers to me are guys who are selling high priced semen + certificate on a young and unproven son of a popular and well proven AI sire that has few to no daughters in production yet. Why would I want to use an unproven son when I can use his proven sire for less? I realize someone has to use these bulls to know if they are any good but I'd rather let someone else make the possibly expensive mistake first which is why I think if you are going to put AI semen on the market you offer it at a lower price initially to entice people to buy and use your bull then once there are some calves on the ground to prove his worth then you increase the prices now that he's in demand more. Nominate those high priced bulls for the National Reference Sire Program at the Olsen Ranch where they breed them to randomly selected cows and the progeny is tested against other sires as well as 2 reference sires in the program. It also goes back to my point about buying semen directly from breeders too. If a breeder is using that bull as a walking herd sire in their program you can see some results in the flesh too. I know some guys think if a bull is in a sire stud catalog he's not a walking herd sire and just being pampered in a pen at the sire stud but that's actually not the case for many of them if you do some research on them. There are some that fit that description but not as many as some think there are.
MRRherefords
Well-known member
That's right. I just sold a bull today that the commercial buyer did not even care if he was registered. He really liked the look of the bull and about flipped when he saw his daddy (our herd sire) The buyer told us that even though the other bulls he looked at were bigger and older, our had the best potential to put the most weight on calves. Sometimes our best calves are actually out of our herd bull. Makes you think.SPH":1783soo6 said:
Saw some new pictures of the Prime Product bull we used AI this summer posted recently. After seeing these I am glad we decided to buy some straws on him. We asked for some recent photos of him this spring and got a couple that taken on a phone that were not as close up and good of quality but they were enough for us to get a good idea of what he looked like currently. I was about to say that Beef 360 really should get an updated photo of him because the one they did have of him on their site does not do him justice (see 1st photo) but just as I was typing this up I went out to their site to grab a link to that photo and saw they did update it with the current photo I saw so here is a comparison plus a nice shot of how thick the bull is from behind.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
The truth crushes 80% (the vast majority) and leaves only the top 20% to make any real moneySPH":1vf5omsk said:
Butch, from a business standpoint of course all that makes sense. The owners want to maximize the amount of money they can make on an AI bull. From a breeder's stance the more expensive and unproven a bull is the less likely someone is going to use him so for some price point can deter some from even considering using a bull if they feel he's over-priced. You already have enough costs associated with AI besides the costs of semen and possibly certificates to register progeny which is why if someone is using AI both the cost associated with using a bull along with selecting bulls that have been used enough to see enough results and have some confidence to use him. Why would you pay nearly double to use semen on a young bull that either doesn't have a daughter in production yet or enough yet to get an idea if he's worth using when you can find a less expensive and more proven sire that costs less to use and takes some of the guesswork and risk out of using AI.
I agree, most guys will AI their best cows so it does stack the deck a little with results but there are also some bulls out there that you can buy semen on that are walking herd sires in some registered herds and those seem to be the ones you can get a better sample size of what he can do when the breeder is using him in the pasture along with the results others have seen using him AI. No one us going to AI the bottom end of their cows too obviously unless they have no choice such as not owning a cleanup bull.
I agree, most guys will AI their best cows so it does stack the deck a little with results but there are also some bulls out there that you can buy semen on that are walking herd sires in some registered herds and those seem to be the ones you can get a better sample size of what he can do when the breeder is using him in the pasture along with the results others have seen using him AI. No one us going to AI the bottom end of their cows too obviously unless they have no choice such as not owning a cleanup bull.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
True... BUT the fastest genetic improvement is made by using top bulls on the bottom cows, so maybe they should.SPH":3erp31nl said:
The 2 easiest things to do with bull selection is to improve the offspring of a bad cow and ruin a top cow's.
Son of Butch":2wxsh3jm said:
Wouldn't culling your bottom cows when/where possible also accomplish the same thing when it comes to genetic improvement? There are plenty of ways to improve or hurt your herd's performance and bull selection does have a big part in that but culling poor or under-performing females can also accomplish that too. I'd rather breed our bottom end cows to our herd sire who if he was selected or bred him right should also improve that cow's progeny than waste time and money with AI on a cow that may eventually be on the chopping block when you need to send some cows to town to keep your herd numbers at a certain level.
We only do 1 heat cycle of timed AI on replacement heifers and our better cows who calved earlier in our calving season then the herd bull(s) do the rest of the work for the breeding season. For us AI is more of a tool to introduce some outcross genetics to the herd and on an average year maybe a quarter to a third of the calf crop are AI calves and the rest by the herd bull. Not worth it to us to stretch out our calving season for the sake of using AI so it's the first thing we do to start the breeding season off then leave the rest of the work to the bull. If they don't settle to the AI service there is good chance she still can calve early enough to get a chance at AI the following year if she settles to the bull 3 weeks later.
Everyone uses AI differently so selection process and what one guy thinks is a reasonable price to pay along with what kind of cows he breeds AI is going to vary based on the goals and resources someone has available to them. For us just don't see the point in using AI on marginal females that would be the first to go if we needed to send some cows to town. Ironically probably some of the best AI calves we've gotten lately is by a bull we bred and kept in-herd semen interest on when we sold him but we have quite a bit of relation to him in our herd so we're limited on who we can use him on but it's nice to know we always have that bull in the semen tank we can go to when we can. Sometimes people can get too caught up with chasing the latest hot AI bull when they have something just as good if not potentially better within their own program to use.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
I think the way you are using A.I. is both sensible and perhaps the most popular way of doing it.SPH":1tyuiy2b said:
Many have a clean up bull suitable to use on heifers, but then use that same bull on cows because they have him.
What I'm suggesting is it might be more profitable to A.I. the bottom 1/2 of the cows too, but using a strictly terminal
A.I. sire of another breed on them before running the clean up bull behind them.
