First Experience with AI a total fail. Need a better way

[rogergreaves]

We're in North Idaho. Part of the problem is that there's a "cadence" to how things are done here and we have trouble dealing with that. The guy that says he'll be here at 0800 tomorrow might be here at 0800 but it almost definitely won't be tomorrow. The other part is that this is our first time around and we were reliant on professional advice and service which was thin.

Anyway, we spent money on 5 straws, shipping, storage, drugs, inseminating 3, preg. Checking 3, re-inseminating 1 and we have ZERO pregnant cows. Our entire little herd will miss an entire year. We followed the Vet's protocol to sync them and relied on him to get the job done. However his AI work is a side job to his regular Vet work and he only does it at night. So we administered the Lutalyse on Sunday night and he didn't come till Wednesday night despite several calls. Clearly this won't ever work and he's the only Vet out of three that we've called that ever showed up at all. We tried an AI tech first but three MONTHS to hear back and never did get any questions answered.

So, my aunt has show dogs and takes them to a sperm bank for this service. The bitch stays at the facility till she's bred. They administer the drugs and do the insemination. Is there a facility that does this for cattle anywhere in the North Idaho, West Montana, East Washington? I'll trailer them in. There is a limited selection of available bulls to lease in our breed and area and most of them come out of one ranch in Washington or their offspring. We want something different and that means two days travel East to get one and we've never handled a bull and we can't rely on anyone else to help if he gets out. So...

 

[Kingfisher]

Who are you buying straws from? Can't you take the cows to the vet? That way they are with him and he can tell when they are in heat and breed em.

 

[rogergreaves]

Bought the straws from a ranch in North Dakota. They were shipped from Hawkeye Breeders Service directly to the Vet.

Maybe, we'll ask. Theirs used to be an all animals practice and there are five docs working there and they do have large animal facilities. However, only the owning doc and our guy actually do large animals anymore and there were no large animals present when we toured. The owner is in his 80's and is selective about what he does. Our guy used to be a cattle vet in Wyoming, sold his practice now does all animal but doesn't want to do cattle full time. If they'll do it, AI with proper facilities on our spoiled rotten Lowlines seems like a low physical risk move. They get fed cubes by hand, brushed and petted almost daily so they behave like dogs. All but one. Want to buy a Lowline Cow?

One complication may be that they're in another state. I can almost throw a rock into that state from my front yard but to take a cow over that line requires a health cert and a permit. Since my destination is the vet and the office is 1/2 mile over the line the health cert may be not be that big a deal. I'll call ag and ask.

 

[Nesikep]

With a botched synch because the vet didn't do the ai at the right time, I am not surprised none of them stuck. Have you thought about maybe finding another breed to breed to just to put some calves on the ground? (dexter, jersey, whatever). If your vet isn't going to do the job right, he just shouldn't do it, especially with the expense you went through to get the straws, etc.

Have you thought about taking an AI course yourself? Given all the hassles you've gone through, it might be a good investment for the future.

I'm sure there's people at the sale barn that'll buy her That's also a place you can get ordinary sized cows too

Whatever happens, I hope you at least enjoy their company (it sounds like it), and you get this sorted out

 

[branguscowgirl]

That is a bummer. Have you called all the Semen sale company's and asked if they have techs in your area? When I first moved here, I was using one an hr. away, only to find out later that I had a tech just down the street from me. Call ABS, Genex, ect. Google them all.

Another good resource are the dairies. They will know all the AI Techs. Call or visit them.
Good luck!

 

[Lucky_P]

I see folks on these boards talking about their veterinarian inseminating their cattle.
I've been in the profession for 30 years; maybe it's just the part of the country I've spent the bulk of my time in (AL/TN/MO/KY, for the most part), but I've NEVER known a veterinarian who did AI for the public. Don't know when they'd have time - it was all I could ever do to try to get all my medical cases and field calls for dystocias, cut horses, etc., done and get home before 10 pm. No way I - or any of the colleagues I know well - could adequately serve anyone needing insemination services at a specific time, and still take care of the 'medicine' end of things.

That said, just because your cows came up open, you don't have to 'miss an entire year'; they'll all be back in heat within the next 21 days...or, at least, they should be...

 

[greybeard]

I see folks on these boards talking about their veterinarian inseminating their cattle.
I've been in the profession for 30 years; maybe it's just the part of the country I've spent the bulk of my time in (AL/TN/MO/KY, for the most part), but I've NEVER known a veterinarian who did AI for the public. Don't know when they'd have time - it was all I could ever do to try to get all my medical cases and field calls for dystocias, cut horses, etc., done and get home before 10 pm. No way I - or any of the colleagues I know well - could adequately serve anyone needing insemination services at a specific time, and still take care of the 'medicine' end of things.

That said, just because your cows came up open, you don't have to 'miss an entire year'; they'll all be back in heat within the next 21 days...or, at least, they should be...

I do not AI, but we have ONE vet in this whole area (two county area) that will do it--and it's on a "as I have time basis" which means you drop the animal(s) off at her place and leave them there, and it ain't inexpensive to have them fed and boarded for any length of time.
She's large and small animal vet which means most of her time is taken up with dogs & cats, with one day/week reserved for farm calls. She is good at what she does, well respected, and affordable with everything I have had her do, but just doesn't have much time.

 

[Bigfoot]

If your going to be serious about AI, it would be best to use a tech, or attend a class. It's not hard at all. If you just have a few head, you could breed on observed heat, and save a little.

 

[cmf1]

Anywhere near Roberts Idaho?

I just pm'd you.
He might be able to help.

 

[cow pollinater]

A couple of thoughts:
Giving lute on Sunday and breeding on Wednesday is fine just as long as you didn't see any heats on monday or tuesday and assuming that they got the gnrh shot within 24 hours of when he bred them. I flex it out that far all the time. I actually like that better as it's more in time with the cows natural cycle so you're helping it instead of forcing it.

Vets are not usually good breeders. I'm sure there are some that can get a cow bred here and there but the ones that I know that have tried it really stink... They over-think everything and somewhere along the line putting semen in the right spot on the right cow seems to fall through the cracks.

Did you use cidrs in your sync protocal and are the cows lactating? I AI for a living and I can't get good conception with regular ovsync on lactating beef cows without cidrs. Beef cows won't build a cl for the lut shot to work on early in their lactation so it's possible that you wasted your time syncing them without the cidrs.

Another possibility... Nothing was wrong anywhere along the chain of events and luck was just not on your side. A 65% conception rate would be pretty good for synced cows. That DOES NOT mean that two out of three should have stuck. It means that each cow has a 65% chance of sticking. If you had 500 head and did everything right you'd likely see around 65% every year but with three head you can do everything right and have that 35% bite your a$$ some years as you don't have the numbers for it to average out in time.
Like flipping a coin. You know that is a 50/50 but you still will have times where you lose ten times in a row.

Maybe try calling ABS. They don't market lowlines but origen has some and origen is distributed by ABS. You might have to point that out to them(there are a handful of real idiots in their customer service department) but if someone local hears that you want to buy semen then you'll have a breeder contacting you shortly.

 

[NWMoAngus]

Man, I hate to be the downer ITT, especially when it comes to educating newbs. But why do you only have five cows, no bull and are trying to AI? If you are willing to purchase a semen tank (Maybe I should ask. Do you have a semen tank to properly store the semen?), semen and spend the money on expensive synchronization drugs and materials, then why no cleanup bull? Nobody I know expects AI to settle 100% of the cows bred. Reminds me of an old friend who grew up on a rowcrop farm with no cows and married a city girl. The new wife wanted to have a few cows, so he bought her a couple of heifers. They decided not to purchase a bull, since they only had five acres of grass. He asked me to come over and breed their heifers. He didn't care what bull I used, semen from any calving ease Angus bull in my tank was OK with him. I explained what heat signs to look for after they gave the heifers a shot of prostaglandin. He called on the evening before he needed me, I went to their five acre operation and found he had absolutely no facilities to handle the heifers. He only had an extra gate to squeeze them up against the side of a loafing shed and a rope halter. Needless to say there was no way I was going to get the AI service done without adequate facilities.

Bottom line is, although I am happy to see new operators trying to get involved in agriculture even at marginal levels, why not try being successful operating in a conventional manner before trying to do it state of the art? There is nothing wrong with doing it the old fashioned way.

 

[Jessica06]

We AI'd last fall and this spring with no clean-up bull. Had 100% in the fall, and only missed two out of about 10 cows this spring. So it is possible. We do it ourselves though, which makes all the difference. I highly recommend taking a class, so you don't have to rely on what sounds like very flaky help. If they all miss, at least you'll only have yourself to blame!

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

We run 25 head, and have never used a clean up bull until this spring BECAUSE we have an embryo bull we really like and WANTED to use him! There is NO NEED for a bull, and we have never owned a breeding age bull until this year. So it can be done, BUT, there are 3 of us that can AI - I sent the husband and daughter when she was 13 to AI school and have never looked back. So when one of us is not available there is always a back up to AI.

Go to school, learn how to do it yourself. Out here it is about $300, which is the cost of about 10 straws of semen so well worth the expense!

 

[rogergreaves]

That said, just because your cows came up open, you don't have to 'miss an entire year'; they'll all be back in heat within the next 21 days...or, at least, they should be...

Breeding was done in May for February calving. Ultrasound was done in June, one pregnant, one open and in heat, re-bred, one broken advised to cull (she looks like a bull except for the plumbing.) Given where I am in this process, one calf would be okay, two a blessing and I'd hope for a better year next year. But, I noticed signs of heat in both of them and decided to draw blood and send it to the lab. Both possible pregnant cows open. This is September. If I breed them now I get June calves of the wrong breed and I'm off cycle. All my girls are Fullblood and registered. I have three cows that could breed but one has a June calf on her and these two plus two heifers that will be ready to breed in May.

Given the expense of AI and the poor results, I'm inclined to wait until May, lease a bull to breed five and start over.

 

[rogergreaves]

If your going to be serious about AI, it would be best to use a tech, or attend a class. It's not hard at all. If you just have a few head, you could breed on observed heat, and save a little.

It's an option. I've seen it done on video and in person. I think I could pull it off. The shooting part looks easy. The storage and handling I have some questions on. Class and equipment would go about two grand not including travel and accommodation. Nitrogen service is questionable. The welding supplier in town was throwing around figures of a couple hundred a month to service a tank if I brought it to them every month. I think he was off.

Leasing a bull looks a lot easier now and more likely to succeed. But I haven't tried that yet either. I suspect there's things I don't know about that too.

 

[rogergreaves]

A couple of thoughts:
Giving lute on Sunday and breeding on Wednesday is fine just as long as you didn't see any heats on monday or tuesday and assuming that they got the gnrh shot within 24 hours of when he bred them. I flex it out that far all the time. I actually like that better as it's more in time with the cows natural cycle so you're helping it instead of forcing it.

Vets are not usually good breeders. I'm sure there are some that can get a cow bred here and there but the ones that I know that have tried it really stink... They over-think everything and somewhere along the line putting semen in the right spot on the right cow seems to fall through the cracks.

Did you use cidrs in your sync protocal and are the cows lactating? I AI for a living and I can't get good conception with regular ovsync on lactating beef cows without cidrs. Beef cows won't build a cl for the lut shot to work on early in their lactation so it's possible that you wasted your time syncing them without the cidrs.

Another possibility... Nothing was wrong anywhere along the chain of events and luck was just not on your side. A 65% conception rate would be pretty good for synced cows. That DOES NOT mean that two out of three should have stuck. It means that each cow has a 65% chance of sticking. If you had 500 head and did everything right you'd likely see around 65% every year but with three head you can do everything right and have that 35% bite your a$$ some years as you don't have the numbers for it to average out in time.
Like flipping a coin. You know that is a 50/50 but you still will have times where you lose ten times in a row.

Maybe try calling ABS. They don't market lowlines but origen has some and origen is distributed by ABS. You might have to point that out to them(there are a handful of real idiots in their customer service department) but if someone local hears that you want to buy semen then you'll have a breeder contacting you shortly.

I'm aware of the odds. I should have had a cleanup bull. I was told to have a cleanup bull. My deal fell through and I didn't seek a second deal. That is on me. I also had a pasture lease deal blow up on me at the same time so I got overwhelmed. Still my fault.

No Cidrs. They had been lactating for about 80 days by breeding day. The Vet's protocol was: gnrh, seven days later: lut, wait for signs of heat then call. Was expecting signs on Monday eve or Tuesday morning. Never saw any but unless there's a Lesbian orgy going on, I might miss it, green like I am. Called his office Wednesday to ask what I should do and he showed up Wednesday eve and went to work. He hit them and gave them a shot of gnrh.

We started with an AI tech. We sent her emails four months in advance asking what we should buy in terms of equip. We have a sweep, alley and chute, we were needing to know about Cidrs, semen and drugs and how to get them. She never responded to several emails or phone calls after that and never answered those questions until we had moved on to this Vet. A month prior to our projected breeding date, she contacted us and wanted to make appointments. We had semen already on the way to the vet and drugs in the fridge by that point. This is North Idaho SOP in every industry. Come here and be a conscientious professional and I suspect you will retire early and well.

 

[rogergreaves]

Man, I hate to be the downer ITT, especially when it comes to educating newbs. But why do you only have five cows, no bull and are trying to AI? If you are willing to purchase a semen tank (Maybe I should ask. Do you have a semen tank to properly store the semen?), semen and spend the money on expensive synchronization drugs and materials, then why no cleanup bull? Nobody I know expects AI to settle 100% of the cows bred. Reminds me of an old friend who grew up on a rowcrop farm with no cows and married a city girl. The new wife wanted to have a few cows, so he bought her a couple of heifers. They decided not to purchase a bull, since they only had five acres of grass. He asked me to come over and breed their heifers. He didn't care what bull I used, semen from any calving ease Angus bull in my tank was OK with him. I explained what heat signs to look for after they gave the heifers a shot of prostaglandin. He called on the evening before he needed me, I went to their five acre operation and found he had absolutely no facilities to handle the heifers. He only had an extra gate to squeeze them up against the side of a loafing shed and a rope halter. Needless to say there was no way I was going to get the AI service done without adequate facilities.

Bottom line is, although I am happy to see new operators trying to get involved in agriculture even at marginal levels, why not try being successful operating in a conventional manner before trying to do it state of the art? There is nothing wrong with doing it the old fashioned way.

Because if I ask 20 guys how to do something I'll get 20 different, conflicting answers. I live in a semi-rural area of 10 acre lots. Most more experienced folks that I've asked say: No way do you want a bull! He'll kill you, tear down your fence, kill your neighbor, the cops will come and kill the bull and your wife will be stuck paying for all of it. Or some variation on that. On the other hand, the bulls I've met at places where we bought heifers and where we bred last year and at the shows are calm critters. But if I bring one here and he does get out, I won't be able to do anything about it and short of animal control, who work under the Sheriff here, there's nobody I could call to help. So I'm reluctant to have a bull here. I'm rethinking that now.

 

[rogergreaves]

Anywhere near Roberts Idaho?

I just pm'd you.
He might be able to help.

No, Roberts is in the other Idaho. We're Kootenai county, north of Coeur d'Alene aka really eastern Washington.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

2 k to get started? Gosh, that is high. When we started, an AI class as 4 nights, cost $300. The tank was $350, and the kit with all the goodies to get started was $200. That is just under a grand. We got a discount for ordering our supplies so many days after the class from the company that ran the class. A bull will cost you 3K in today's market, dollar for dollar you are better off with the AI route, if that is what you really want. OR, look into leasing a bull for 60 days, that would be cheaper.

And, since you filled in a few details, it sounds like something else might be going on... If she was confirmed bred but later came in open, the vet did his job on that one. Before you start up again next year, make sure you have a good mineral program and everything is up to par with the cows and heifers. If it makes you feel better, our first we had 100% calf crop loss!! With only one calf our first year, that was not hard to accomplish. He was born dead..... Boom, bad calving year :nod: glad I can look back on it now, years later, and smile!

Edit to add nitrogen: a tank needs to be filled maybe three times a year (depending on the tank). If we take it somewhere, it will cost $20. We are now on a route with ABS, and he charges $75 a year to maintain it. We just check it monthly.... Much easier!

 

[rogergreaves]

2 k to get started? Gosh, that is high. When we started, an AI class as 4 nights, cost $300. The tank was $350, and the kit with all the goodies to get started was $200. That is just under a grand. We got a discount for ordering our supplies so many days after the class from the company that ran the class. A bull will cost you 3K in today's market, dollar for dollar you are better off with the AI route, if that is what you really want. OR, look into leasing a bull for 60 days, that would be cheaper.

And, since you filled in a few details, it sounds like something else might be going on... If she was confirmed bred but later came in open, the vet did his job on that one. Before you start up again next year, make sure you have a good mineral program and everything is up to par with the cows and heifers. If it makes you feel better, our first we had 100% calf crop loss!! With only one calf our first year, that was not hard to accomplish. He was born dead..... Boom, bad calving year :nod: glad I can look back on it now, years later, and smile!

Edit to add nitrogen: a tank needs to be filled maybe three times a year (depending on the tank). If we take it somewhere, it will cost $20. We are now on a route with ABS, and he charges $75 a year to maintain it. We just check it monthly.... Much easier!

What size tank are you talking about?

Well, the classes we considered are $650-$800, advertised on line. The tanks are about $400 on line. That vet had a heater and a holder for the straws. I don't know what that costs but not free. My info on servicing the tank came from a welding supplier. I know a welding supplier is not who you guys would use and he probably has never actually done it and may not be quoting the right info. He sure didn't seem like he knew anything.

The vet may have done his job on the AI. When I mentioned drawing blood for preg check, he told me about how inaccurate the tests are and sold me on Ultrasound. I'm not so sure she was bred at that time. When I saw this done in Montana, the vet was calling out the days pregnant and sometimes the sex while showing me pictures of what was an obvious calf on the screen. We did 100+ cows that day all 90 to 120 days bred. I didn't see any such thing here. The blood test costs under $3 each, results in two days, 95% accurate after 30 days and it's DIY at my end. I trust it. I don't think ultrasound works at ~30 days. But I had the only professional I have access to standing there telling me to do it so I went with it. I'll call it a tuition expense. All of this is a tuition expense.

We're using the mineral the vet recommended as best we can find. Most of the farm supplies when asked about minerals point to a red or brown block. That's it. the vet said to use loose mineral with the highest selenium available. We use a bagged "winter mix" from Big R. I can't remember the name. Calves get 2cc of BO-SE at birth and everybody gets 2cc in the fall by injection. The bagged free choice mineral claims to be "complete" I hope it has everything else they need. White muscle has been such a problem here that when minerals come up, selenium is the only thing anybody talks about. I know it's not the whole story.