field-UPDATE

[agmantoo]

dun,

You wanted to know how the herbicides such as Cimeron discussed above is lethal to earthworms then read this
http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/metsulfu.htm
As little as .035 of an ounce of the Cimeron to 35.27 ounces of soil will kill 1/2 of the earth worms in that soil.
Even if I was not concerned about the earth worms, I would not use the herbicide as it is stressful to the grass and it will kill the legumes. Why would anyone want to harm what they are trying to propagate? Did the Southern States employee that made the recommendation realize what the goal was or was the employee selling product and services?

 

[BILL CLAYLAND]

agmantoo, I told him what the plans were.
He did say that you couldnt grow fescue for 2 years.

I sent the local ag ext office the picture.

 

[1982vett]

dun,

You wanted to know how the herbicides such as Cimeron discussed above is lethal to earthworms then read this
http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/metsulfu.htm
As little as .035 of an ounce of the Cimeron to 35.27 ounces of soil will kill 1/2 of the earth worms in that soil.
Even if I was not concerned about the earth worms, I would not use the herbicide as it is stressful to the grass and it will kill the legumes. Why would anyone want to harm what they are trying to propagate? Did the Southern States employee that made the recommendation realize what the goal was or was the employee selling product and services?

Agmantoo.......... Do you have a clue what you just proposed?

A cubic foot of soil weighs approxamately 110 lbs (1760 oz of dirt). .035 oz of Cimmeron is enough to treat approxamately 1/3 of an acre (14,520 square feet).

You just proposed that appying all of that (.035 oz of Cimmeron) to 35.27 oz of soil ((approx 3 cubic inches of dirt (1760 oz of dirt/144 cubic inches in a cubic foot of dirt = 12.22oz/cubic inch of dirt. x 3=36.66oz)) will kill 1/2 of the earthworms........... Pretty tuff earthworms if you ask me.


.035 oz is enough to treat 1/3 of an acre (14,520 square feet @ 1/10th oz per acre). But you are concerned because it will kill 1/2 of the earth worms if it is all applied to 1/4 of in inch of dirt in a 12"x12"x2" corningware dish?

Pretty sure that much beer would kill them all. :lol:

 

[agmantoo]

1982vett

I believe that .035 ounce is 35/1000 (35 thousandths) of an ounce or 1.48 grams and is the amount that would cover 1227 sq ft of surface area at the rate being discussed. I also believe that I read that the rate was to be 1 1/4 ounces per acre or 35.48 grams/ acre. Yes, I will acknowledge that it is unlikely that 2.8 percent of the acre rate will be spilled or spread on an amount of soil to kill 50 % of the earth worms in a single application. Then again I have seen the entire herbicide dumped from a sprayer in a few hundred feet when the herbicide failed to get properly mixed in the sprayer. I will not acknowledge that some of the earth worms will not be killed off by a lesser amount or that there will not be an accumulation of the herbicide over time to where it has a major impact. There are many herbicides that are far worse on the earth worms than the one being discussed. I was just pointing out that herbicides are detrimental in some situations and using the herbicide being discussed as an example that they do kill earth worms and how. Admittedly, in the past when I was growing soybeans I used a lot of herbicides and at that time I believed that was the only way I could produce a good yield. I am now in the beef business and I know how to grow forage. I can be a low cost producer of feeder calves at a profit on land that was previously considered "worn out" and without depending on herbicides, commercial fertilizer and baled hay.

 

[1982vett]

1982vett

I believe that .035 ounce is 35/1000 (35 thousandths) of an ounce or 1.48 grams and is the amount that would cover 1227 sq ft of surface area at the rate being discussed.

You are correct......add 3 of them together and you get 105/1000 (.105) or just a wee bit over 1/10th of an oz. The minimum (and effective) rate for target plants listed on the label @ 1/10th of an ounce so that .035 oz would be appropriate for about 1/3 of an acre.

Am I flunking math today?

If anything is suspect, it is the 1/4 inch of dirt in a 12"x12" pan weighing around 35.27 oz.

Ok, so the recomended application in this thread is 1.25 oz per acre which is 12 1/2 times my original example......but the fact remains .035 oz of this chemical is a butt load to put on 35.27 ounces of dirt.


by the way if it really matters, .035 oz is .99223309 grams. Check it out. http://www.unitconversion.org/weight/ou ... rsion.html

Probably a better suited herbicide for the job anyway. ;-)

 

[novatech]

Remedy in a backpack sprayer. You would be surprised at how fast you can cover that area by spot spraying. Any worms that are killed will be considered sacrificial lambs. They will come back with proper pasture management. One does not have to go off the deep end just because you want to save the worms. There is a happy medium.
agmantoo just consider that when you cleared that area for pasture you took away a certain amount of bird nests. Now we have less birds. With less birds we have less bird poop. We also have less clean air. You also added a lot of Co2 to the air. You in fact did more damage to the earthworm population by clearing than the little herbicide that would be used. But over a period of time you built their population back up. So how far do you want to take it? It is not wither we are going to leave a foot print but how bad a footprint we are going to leave.
Responsible use is the key. Not no use.

 

[pdfangus]

Remedy in a backpack sprayer. You would be surprised at how fast you can cover that area by spot spraying. Any worms that are killed will be considered sacrificial lambs. They will come back with proper pasture management. One does not have to go off the deep end just because you want to save the worms. There is a happy medium.
agmantoo just consider that when you cleared that area for pasture you took away a certain amount of bird nests. Now we have less birds. With less birds we have less bird poop. We also have less clean air. You also added a lot of Co2 to the air. You in fact did more damage to the earthworm population by clearing than the little herbicide that would be used. But over a period of time you built their population back up. So how far do you want to take it? It is not wither we are going to leave a foot print but how bad a footprint we are going to leave.
Responsible use is the key. Not no use.

I gotta agree with novatech here.

nothing happens in a vaccum. Every action has some reaction or consequences. the difficult part is managing the unintended consequences because you don't know what they are till after they happen.

But moderation and common sense are the two perquisites that often get left out of too many equations.

I work in soil and water conservation and work with good people who are well intended, but way too many of them get too carried away with regulation and thou shalt nots. they just want to do good but often totally overshoot the mark.

Often times all that is needed is a small dose of common sense which in todays world is no longer all that common.

Overuse of herbicides is not good. striving for monocultures is not good. but having something to knock out red root pig weed and thistle is very good. I have never controlled either one of those with grazing. Yes i kill the clover under the pigweed but the clover will come back if it rains and then it is avialable to the stock.

 

[agmantoo]

I was not and I am not trying to get into a who can p*** the furthest contest. I am opposed to using the herbicide method on the area being discussed because I know for certain that I could turn that area in the picture around without spraying and at less cost and in shorter time. IMO, you folks are not open minded and the conventional approach is all that you seem to recognize. Why cannot you accept a more unconventional approach or at least listen prior to condemning? Yes, I have some thistle, but very minimal. I did have pig weeds because at one time I did raise soybeans on the better parts of this acreage. I no longer have pig weed with the exception of a rare one popping up. My neighbors however that do spray have pig weed, bitterweed, thistle, etc and very poor pastures. Any of you folks that live within a reasonable distance of the intersection of I-40 and I-77 in western NC that want to visit and see what can be accomplished are certainly welcome. If you want any pics of any part of the farm posted I will accommodate.

PS....I have enough trees that I planted to offset what CO2 I sent to the atmosphere and then some! The grass that I replaced the brush with will actually be better at handling the CO2 than what was removed.

 

[pdfangus]

I am certainly not wanting to be argumentative over it.

In fact I beleive I sent you a private message inquiring about how you specificaly address this issue with grazing.

I am trying to broaden my horizons and investigate weed control and pasture improvement with grazing by attempting MIG grazing this year.

A lifetime of battling weeds is hard to turn around in a single swoop of philosophical change.

We had redroot pigweed come in when we bought hay in a drought year about a dozen years ago and we have been fighting it ever since.

Just as is advocated in crop pest control I somewhat think an integrated approach that considers all options is ultimately going to be the most sucessful.

 

[dcara]

I'm with PDF and Nova for just 10 acres. Remedy in a backpack and you'll be done in just a few hours or less. Not sure whether you will get better kill if you wait for the leaves or not though.

 

[BILL CLAYLAND]

Well I wanted to let yall know whats goin on. and first thanks for your observations and assistance.
I ended up E-mailing my local extension office.
Theire suggestion was to mow and spot spray any new foilage with Roundup or equiv.
Took about 5 hours to get rid of brush and mow.
Now I can open a new paddock I got finished a few months ago and get som hay off the field this year. last time it was done we got 18 rounds 4x5 off of it.