Bush Hogging a Hay Field?

[Mark Reynolds]

I wish burning was more common here. I'd love to light my entire property but nobody does it that I know of and I am not brave enough. Lol.

Go talk to the NRCS. Remember, you were in my stomping grounds. About 2 years ago, there were 4 NRCS employees that became certified in Area 3 (your area) to sign off on burn plans. I was one of them. It's not out of the question, but will take some pushing and effort on your part to get them to do it. Tell them I told you to talk to them. I think you are in Belmont, maybe Monroe? so your DC would be Gina. They (NRCS or SWCD) should be able to assemble a crew that can conduct a burn on your property with some effort, and talk to the Wayne NF as well, they do some burning although that is federal, not private, ground.

 

[chaded]

Go talk to the NRCS. Remember, you were in my stomping grounds. About 2 years ago, there were 4 NRCS employees that became certified in Area 3 (your area) to sign off on burn plans. I was one of them. It's not out of the question, but will take some pushing and effort on your part to get them to do it. Tell them I told you to talk to them. I think you are in Belmont, maybe Monroe? so your DC would be Gina. They (NRCS or SWCD) should be able to assemble a crew that can conduct a burn on your property with some effort, and talk to the Wayne NF as well, they do some burning although that is federal, not private, ground.

Gallia. I think the difficulty with my place would be the terrain at the property boundaries. I can't imagine it being easy to put in breaks to prevent burning up my neighbors places. I have in-laws on the one side of me as well. Lol.

 

[kenny thomas]

Go talk to the NRCS. Remember, you were in my stomping grounds. About 2 years ago, there were 4 NRCS employees that became certified in Area 3 (your area) to sign off on burn plans. I was one of them. It's not out of the question, but will take some pushing and effort on your part to get them to do it. Tell them I told you to talk to them. I think you are in Belmont, maybe Monroe? so your DC would be Gina. They (NRCS or SWCD) should be able to assemble a crew that can conduct a burn on your property with some effort, and talk to the Wayne NF as well, they do some burning although that is federal, not private, ground.

I am pretty familiar with burning so have to ask some questions.
If your in Ohio what are your reasons for burning. You probably dont have warm season grasses that needs an occasional light burn.
Are you burning to get rid of something. Lot of old people burned broom sage but you need to get the soil in the correct condition and it will get rid of the sage.
With the heavy average rainfall most any dead grasses will rot away by the next year.
Burning also brings its own problems. It opens up the seedbed and almost always blackberry will come in and have to be controlled.
In an area thats for wildlife only there might be some advantages for burning small areas.
Mark, you mention that NRCS and SWCD can find a burn crew. Definitely not here.
And if you might wonder i am a Prescribed Burn Manager and a Burn Boss with 48 years experience as a firefighter.
This opinion is for this area which is not far from chaded. I know places like south texas has grasses that need burned occasionally. I dont feel we need widespread burning in grasses and im definitely against burning in timberland. I see USFS burn for fuel reduction when there is absolutely no reason. They kill valuable timber.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I am pretty familiar with burning so have to ask some questions.
If your in Ohio what are your reasons for burning. You probably dont have warm season grasses that needs an occasional light burn.
Are you burning to get rid of something. Lot of old people burned broom sage but you need to get the soil in the correct condition and it will get rid of the sage.
With the heavy average rainfall most any dead grasses will rot away by the next year.
Burning also brings its own problems. It opens up the seedbed and almost always blackberry will come in and have to be controlled.
In an area thats for wildlife only there might be some advantages for burning small areas.
Mark, you mention that NRCS and SWCD can find a burn crew. Definitely not here.
And if you might wonder i am a Prescribed Burn Manager and a Burn Boss with 48 years experience as a firefighter.
This opinion is for this area which is not far from chaded. I know places like south texas has grasses that need burned occasionally. I dont feel we need widespread burning in grasses and im definitely against burning in timberland. I see USFS burn for fuel reduction when there is absolutely no reason. They kill valuable timber.

Your points are of course valid. There are occasional stands of native WSG scattered around. That being said, they are few, far between, and usually too small to really consider for a burn. Occasionally there are areas that do build up accumulations of organic debris that does not readily break down, but again this is not the norm. Removal/elimination of accumulating woody growth has sometimes been suggested as a reason for burning. I only ever recommended a burn a couple times in my 17 years in Ohio. It is extremely rare. It is, however, an option. I don't know the pasture @chaded is suggesting for a burn. All I can do is suggest who to turn to for a follow up to his consideration for a burn when he has not been able to find anyone. I was giving him someone. Someone else needs to make the call 'to burn or not to burn', and why.

 

[chaded]

Cedar is out of control in this area so that was one thing among other 'junk' I was thinking about. Likelihood of a burn here is pretty slim. Mainly, I just look at my property that the previous owner let go and wish I could just torch the place.

 

[kenny thomas]

Cedar is out of control in this area so that was one thing among other 'junk' I was thinking about. Likelihood of a burn here is pretty slim. Mainly, I just look at my property that the previous owner let go and wish I could just torch the place.

Cedar is actually a good reason to burn. But if burning is not an option again the soil sampling and correction of whats needed will take care of the cedar. I had lots of Cedar on the farm im on right now and except for fence rows i have pretty much eliminated it with proper PH and fertilizer.

 

[Brute 23]

@kenny thomas We usually burn to reduce fuel load, standing or thatch, and/or to manage brush.

The pictures I posted of the fire is a 400ish acre hay field that is being fert and sprayed per soil tests. It grew back after the last cutting but not enough to justify another cutting. The spring started off wet so they opted to burn the grass off from last year so they first cutting would be clean, fresh growth. You know how it is, 30 days later it was beautiful.

That's very simular to the OP circumstances and is why I would consider burning it. Obviously, they need to consult with local contacts and make their own choices just like any thing on here.

Attached is a field that is a good candidate for a burn first part of the year. The thatch is starting to accumulate to the point of choking out areas of grass. With the right moisture this year I would consider burning it before spring.

 

[kenny thomas]

@kenny thomas We usually burn to reduce fuel load, standing or thatch, and/or to manage brush.

The pictures I posted of the fire is a 400ish acre hay field that is being fert and sprayed per soil tests. It grew back after the last cutting but not enough to justify another cutting. The spring started off wet so they opted to burn the grass off from last year so they first cutting would be clean, fresh growth. You know how it is, 30 days later it was beautiful.

That's very simular to the OP circumstances and is why I would consider burning it. Obviously, they need to consult with local contacts and make their own choices just like any thing on here.

Attached is a field that is a good candidate for a burn first part of the year. The thatch is starting to accumulate to the point of choking out areas of grass. With the right moisture this year I would consider burning it before spring.

View attachment 35499View attachment 35500

I totally understand burning in your area. Different grasses that are as i would describe as being fire dependent. They need a burn every few years.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Cedar is out of control in this area so that was one thing among other 'junk' I was thinking about. Likelihood of a burn here is pretty slim. Mainly, I just look at my property that the previous owner let go and wish I could just torch the place.

There aren't a lot of valid reasons to burn where you are, but just managed to hit on one of them if the size of the area and infestation is bad enough: eastern red cedar. That and the terrain is not conducive to mowing, which I'd need to see the site to evaluate.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Cedar is actually a good reason to burn. But if burning is not an option again the soil sampling and correction of whats needed will take care of the cedar. I had lots of Cedar on the farm im on right now and except for fence rows i have pretty much eliminated it with proper PH and fertilizer.

Sorry Kenny, I'm not trying to 'mock' or imitate you. I just pointed out that cedar is one of the few reasons to burn where he is, and then I saw you said the same thing. The pH as a way to address cedar is unusual to me and I don't think I've heard that anywhere. I'm interested in how that works. If adjusting the pH where cedar is will kill it or you have to adjust the pH before the cedar becomes a problem.

 

[chaded]

There aren't a lot of valid reasons to burn where you are, but just managed to hit on one of them if the size of the area and infestation is bad enough: eastern red cedar. That and the terrain is not conducive to mowing, which I'd need to see the site to evaluate.

Mowing is not done very easy and I won't take a tractor on a lot of it. I do think I could use a track loader with brush mower attachment but….$$$

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Mowing is not done very easy and I won't take a tractor on a lot of it. I do think I could use a track loader with brush mower attachment but….$$$

LOL. Ok. now you have 2 valid reasons to burn in an area that there are typically few. I sent you a PM as well.

I'm guessing we can go for a third reason as I bet this isn't exactly a small area either.

 

[kenny thomas]

Sorry Kenny, I'm not trying to 'mock' or imitate you. I just pointed out that cedar is one of the few reasons to burn where he is, and then I saw you said the same thing. The pH as a way to address cedar is unusual to me and I don't think I've heard that anywhere. I'm interested in how that works. If adjusting the pH where cedar is will kill it or you have to adjust the pH before the cedar becomes a problem.

I mention PH because without the proper PH the fertilizer cannot be utilized very well. I can't wrap my mind around it at this moment to say that adjusting the P or the K will control the cedar.
It will not control any larger cedar but yes some that are only a few inches tall it seems to help.
I graze some pretty steep land but can get over most of it with a 4 wheel drive tractor and small spreader to fertilize. If you can't get over it maybe burning is an only option.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I mention PH because without the proper PH the fertilizer cannot be utilized very well. I can't wrap my mind around it at this moment to say that adjusting the P or the K will control the cedar.
It will not control any larger cedar but yes some that are only a few inches tall it seems to help.
I graze some pretty steep land but can get over most of it with a 4 wheel drive tractor and small spreader to fertilize. If you can't get over it maybe burning is an only option.

Red cedar in the east, western juniper in the northwest, alligator juniper in the southwest.....all three being species of the genus Juniperus, as well as other juniper species, have been on a strange, unprecented trend of increasing (as NO evidence ANYWHERE (sediment layers, glaciers) indicating an increase in their abundance of the current trends over the past 50-70 years has EVER occurred. The increase between these closely related species that are 1,000s of miles apart is difficult to explain (climate shift?) and isn't really supported by change in pH. Red cedar also has an incredably broad pH tolerance 4.7 to 7.8. These characteristics don't seem to support a change in pH has a significant effect on a cedar stand, although I won't difinitively say it doesn't. Just lacking evidence it seems. P and K availability 'could' be a factor but I suspect it could be from a standopint that lower P and K availability weakens competing vegetation to cedar much the same way broomesedge gains an advantage by having lower P and K requirements than grasses that compete against it when these nutrients are low in availability. I haven't heard this suggested before but is plausible. Rarely is burning the 'only' option, but at times it is the only economical and functionally viable option. Juniper species are trees of 'succession' for the most part and not so much supported by ecological stable states representative of 'state and transition' models, so why is so much 'succession' seemingly wanting to occurr across the US that has never happened ecologically before?

 

[kenny thomas]

I will speak to red cedar because it is what we have. Yes its a pioneer species meaning its one of the first to start taking over. Mismanagement is many times the issue. Tomorrow i will get some pictures of a steep hill on my farm that was red cedar and moss when i bought it. It took me several years but now its in stockpiled fescue for the winter. It was good soil but had just been let go for probably a generation. Was it costly, yes. Would i do it again, heck yes. I still soil test every 3 years and follow the test results.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I will speak to red cedar because it is what we have. Yes its a pioneer species meaning its one of the first to start taking over. Mismanagement is many times the issue. Tomorrow i will get some pictures of a steep hill on my farm that was red cedar and moss when i bought it. It took me several years but now its in stockpiled fescue for the winter. It was good soil but had just been let go for probably a generation. Was it costly, yes. Would i do it again, heck yes. I still soil test every 3 years and follow the test results.

I like success stories like this.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I will speak to red cedar because it is what we have. Yes its a pioneer species meaning its one of the first to start taking over. Mismanagement is many times the issue. Tomorrow i will get some pictures of a steep hill on my farm that was red cedar and moss when i bought it. It took me several years but now its in stockpiled fescue for the winter. It was good soil but had just been let go for probably a generation. Was it costly, yes. Would i do it again, heck yes. I still soil test every 3 years and follow the test results.

Pioneer species and 'taking over', a.k.a. succession is a process that occurs naturally east of the Mississippi. Western Rangelands often/usually have an alternate process that occurs to succession that produces a 'stable state' somewhere along the 'continuum' of the model used in the eastern US leading to a climax state. The stable state in the western rangelands is maintained by a 'state and transition' model that is markedly different from the succession model seen in the east. Comparing and contrasting ecology from different parts of the US can be really fascinating, and really makes you think about the whys and hows.

 

[kenny thomas]

Pioneer species and 'taking over', a.k.a. succession is a process that occurs naturally east of the Mississippi. Western Rangelands often/usually have an alternate process that occurs to succession that produces a 'stable state' somewhere along the 'continuum' of the model used in the eastern US leading to a climax state. The stable state in the western rangelands is maintained by a 'state and transition' model that is markedly different from the succession model seen in the east. Comparing and contrasting ecology from different parts of the US can be really fascinating, and really makes you think about the whys and hows.

Yes, in my area i can see places that were farmed for corn in my lifetime thats in small log timber now. Anything left unattended here goes back to woods in just a few years.

 

[DNelson]

I wish burning was more common here. I'd love to light my entire property but nobody does it that I know of and I am not brave enough. Lol.

see if your local fire department would like to do a controlled wildfire training/drill on your property

 

[Logan52]

My steeper hills were in corn year after year through the tough years of the 1930s and into the early 40s. When I bought the farm in 1972 they were in pretty good grass, fescue with Jap Clover. I mowed them a few times with a team of mules. As I took an off the farm job and ran fewer head of cattle, the hills began the succession into woodland. I first hired them mowed with a sickle bar mower, later a four wheel drive tractor and batwing.
I never got them back in the good grass they had in the 70s and 80s.
A good burn would do them good but would be dangerous along the road and next to neighbors.
My main invasives are sumac, briars and multiflora rose. The sycamores and yellow poplars get bad if ignored long enough.
Our land is pretty damp natured and can usually only be burned during a dry windy spell in March. A broom sedge field burns easy enough but is better addressed with lime and fertilizer.