Fescue & Clover Strips - crazy idea

[Douglas]

So I was out on the farm cultipacking some fescue. I came up with this crazy idea. So how do you include clover in a fescue pasture when you may save for hay from time to time? Since reading here for a few weeks it seems the nitrogen from clover production is not in the soil but through recycled waste. Why not sow the grass and clover in adjacent strips about the width of your fertilizer spreader. Then you could fertilize the grass only. You could also spray the grass for weeds maybe. I know seeding it would be time consuming but would it work. One problem would be when it was grazed, the cows would clean up the clover first. But I wonder if that is true. Anyone thought about this before?

 

[IluvABbeef]

To be frank (and honest) I think that's a dumb idea. Your putting fert on the grass where you could just sow the grass and clover together...it'd be a waste of fertilizer if you put the grass and clover separatly in strips. Nitrogen IS in the soil, the clover helps complete the nitrogen cycle in the soil, which provides nitrogen to the grass. Not only that but the cattle benefit from the clover-grass mix from getting bites of grass and clover. If you planted in strips you'll end up with patches that are overgrazed b/c the cattle'd favor the higher palatable clover than grass.

just my opinion.

 

[dun]

Wouldn;t take long for both to encroach on the each other. In a few years you would be right back where you should have been to start, a mixture of both in all areas.

 

[novatech]

To be frank (and honest) I think that's a dumb idea. Your putting fert on the grass where you could just sow the grass and clover together...it'd be a waste of fertilizer if you put the grass and clover separatly in strips. Nitrogen IS in the soil, the clover helps complete the nitrogen cycle in the soil, which provides nitrogen to the grass. Not only that but the cattle benefit from the clover-grass mix from getting bites of grass and clover. If you planted in strips you'll end up with patches that are overgrazed b/c the cattle'd favor the higher palatable clover than grass.

just my opinion.

May not be as dumb as you think. If the grass has not been fertilized before it may in fact benefit from fertilizer, where as the clover will not or at least the fertilizer blend may be different. The grass will need nitrogen, the clover will not. The clover may require more potasium. A soil sample listing what is going to be planted would determine which and how much fertilizer to apply on each. When mixing the two together there is no immediate benefit from the clover adding nitrogen to the grass until it is converted through the vegetation. The first year the grass will not benefit from the clover until the cow manure drops on it, or the clover decomposes back into the soil.
I do agree that the cattle will be selective and will eat the clover first but wouldn't they do the same if they were mixed? The second year will receive the most benefit if the clover is allowed to seed out.
Clover draws nitrogen from the air. The only nitrogen it draws from the soil is when it first gets started, and that is very little.

 

[IluvABbeef]

To be frank (and honest) I think that's a dumb idea. Your putting fert on the grass where you could just sow the grass and clover together...it'd be a waste of fertilizer if you put the grass and clover separatly in strips. Nitrogen IS in the soil, the clover helps complete the nitrogen cycle in the soil, which provides nitrogen to the grass. Not only that but the cattle benefit from the clover-grass mix from getting bites of grass and clover. If you planted in strips you'll end up with patches that are overgrazed b/c the cattle'd favor the higher palatable clover than grass.

just my opinion.

May not be as dumb as you think. If the grass has not been fertilized before it may in fact benefit from fertilizer, where as the clover will not or at least the fertilizer blend may be different. The grass will need nitrogen, the clover will not. The clover may require more potassium. A soil sample listing what is going to be planted would determine which and how much fertilizer to apply on each. When mixing the two together there is no immediate benefit from the clover adding nitrogen to the grass until it is converted through the vegetation. The first year the grass will not benefit from the clover until the cow manure drops on it, or the clover decomposes back into the soil.
I do agree that the cattle will be selective and will eat the clover first but wouldn't they do the same if they were mixed? The second year will receive the most benefit if the clover is allowed to seed out.
Clover draws nitrogen from the air. The only nitrogen it draws from the soil is when it first gets started, and that is very little.

Why worry about what's going to happen the first year you plant the crop when there's a whole whack of subsequent years to think about what's going to happen to interactions between clover and grass? Of course you need fertilizer the first year, that's no doubt, and of course the grass ain't going to benefit from the clover right away because the clover (and the grass) still have root systems to establish. Adequate growth for clover will come from fertilizer and rhizobia, and growth from grass will come from fertilizer, possibly the same fertilizer used for clover.

The cattle will still be selective if the clover and grass is mixed, but there will be a higher incidence of selective grazing if the two cultures are planted separately in strips. What I was saying was that okay, cattle will select out the clover if they have enough reason to, but if the pastures are managed properly that is less likely to happen, and that with a mixed grass-legume sward the cattle have a much higher chance of grabbing a mouthful of grass along with clover than if the clover was seeded into strips separate from the grass. Overgrazing will occur in those strips of just clover, ending up with a ugly patchy pasture that you never intended to have in
the first place.

And I wasn't talking about where clover gets its nitrogen from. I don't even remember talking about anything like that, unless I missed something...

 

[Douglas]

But what about fields used mostly for hay. Normally wouldn't the grass overtake the cover and you get no help on your fertilizer bills for fescue used mostly for hay. In the summer when the grass is dormant maybe the clover helps cover the summer slump and provide nitrogen for stockpiling or fall hay.

 

[gertguy]

where in nc are u from

 

[novatech]

url=http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=587274#p587274]Subject: Fescue & Clover Strips - crazy idea[/url]

Your putting fert on the grass where you could just sow the grass and clover together...it'd be a waste of fertilizer if you put the grass and clover separatly in strips. Nitrogen IS in the soil, the clover helps complete the nitrogen cycle in the soil, which provides nitrogen to the grass.
quote]
By this statement you clearly indicate that the grass needs no fert. if it is planted with clover. You also state clearly that the nitrogen is already in the soil indicating that is where it gets the nitrogen.
The grass will need N the first year which it cannot get from the clover until the following years after the clover decomposes or the cows spread it. The clover will not benefit from additional N the first year as it produces it's own from the AIR not from the SOIL. The clover will benefit from additional P, the grass will not benefit from additional P. The grass needs additional N the first year because it gets N from the soil which the clover will not provide until following years. The clover will not benefit from additional N.
After the first year, if both clover and grass are allowed to seed out, both grass and clover should be dispersed naturally and a natural benefit of legume to grass coexistence will have been established. The need for fertilizer will be highly reduced.
Having said all the above I do however agree with you about the grazing of the cattle and their eating habits. But please explain to me how if you plant them together it will prevent the cattle from being selective.

 

[dun]

please explain to me how if you plant them together it will prevent the cattle from being selective.

Usually a percentage of each bite consists of some of each type of plant. In an area where we have large clumps of clover, 4-5 foot patch of straight clover, the cows will graze through it but will eat the clover darn near to the ground. If it's the wrong time of year we end up with patches of weeds and clover in those spots. The majority of the pastues the clvoer and fescue are mixed and no one area get's hammered. The cows just graze through it.

 

[Dap]

I did just what you are thinking about, except it wasn't planned. I had a problem with my seeder and my clover ended up in perfect strips 20ft. wide (at double the intended rate), with 20ft. of fescue in between. Of course, the field was right along the road for everyone to see and I think every clover seed germinated. It didn't really stand out until after the first cutting of hay, that's when the clover took off. I divide that field into several paddocks after making hay. I was concerned about bloat, so I only moved them to a new paddock after the dew was gone just to be safe. It worked out ok, but I won't let it happen again. I'm trying to decide whether I should add a light rate of clover in the fescue strips, or just wait patiently for it to spread itself.

I think every neighbor within 5 miles has asked me what I was doing with that field.

 

[Douglas]

where in nc are u from

Sanford

 

[novatech]

In reality I do not see the selectivity as much in my cattle as what a lot of people claim. During the day they will roam through the pasture eating what is in front of them, except for some select weeds. They may be on clover one part of the day and later on stockpiled forage, or even take a tour through the woods eating leaves off the trees. I have some areas with no clover but native rye. Every thing seems to be grazed equally. I have planted clover in strips in pastures before. Maybe only one strip in a pasture with a no till. I do this to get it established. I have never seen the cattle graze these strips out. They have been allowed to go to seed. A couple of years latter it has spread through out the pasture. I have had pastures of pure clover and fed out low quality hay just to plug up the cows. If they would eat the crappy hay it seems as though they would also go into grass planted in strips planted next to strip grown clover.
Don't get me wrong on this. I am in no way suggesting planting in strips. I'm just saying it is not dumb as far as getting it established. Their specific needs can be addressed if one so desires. Personally I prefer the mix throughout the pasture. In fact I am planting a mix today myself. I can do this because I now have a no till with three separate boxes. With a broad cast spreader I had to do this with 3 separate passes. If I put them together they tend to segregate with the smaller seed going to the bottom.

 

[dun]

In reality I do not see the selectivity as much in my cattle as what a lot of people claim.

Itmay have somethign to do with the types of grass/forage available. Some grasses are just more palatable then others.

 

[novatech]

I agree to that. Kind of like getting a kid to eating his spinach. Mom would hide it the meat loaf.

 

[gertguy]

i am east of you in Johnston County
Do you know Alan Cox

 

[Douglas]

^ Retired ag teacher.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Your putting fert on the grass where you could just sow the grass and clover together...it'd be a waste of fertilizer if you put the grass and clover separatly in strips. Nitrogen IS in the soil, the clover helps complete the nitrogen cycle in the soil, which provides nitrogen to the grass.

By this statement you clearly indicate that the grass needs no fert. if it is planted with clover. You also state clearly that the nitrogen is already in the soil indicating that is where it gets the nitrogen.
The grass will need N the first year which it cannot get from the clover until the following years after the clover decomposes or the cows spread it. The clover will not benefit from additional N the first year as it produces it's own from the AIR not from the SOIL. The clover will benefit from additional P, the grass will not benefit from additional P. The grass needs additional N the first year because it gets N from the soil which the clover will not provide until following years. The clover will not benefit from additional N.
After the first year, if both clover and grass are allowed to seed out, both grass and clover should be dispersed naturally and a natural benefit of legume to grass coexistence will have been established. The need for fertilizer will be highly reduced.

Darn it, I can't believe I said that...well THAT was dumb...Alrighty, I stand corrected about the nitrogen deal.

Having said all the above I do however agree with you about the grazing of the cattle and their eating habits. But please explain to me how if you plant them together it will prevent the cattle from being selective.

Like dun answered before me, it's about palatability. Grasses you have may be less palatable than others, so they'd select the clover over the less palatable grasses. However, if you put in grasses that are of high palatability right up there with the clover, then there's less chance of cattle being selective.