Favorite Hereford Bull, past 20 years

[Elder Statesman]

As soon as I posted that, I knew someone would put me on the hot seat. First of all, too much birth weight and calving ease issues. I'm not sure there is enough extra growth to balance that out. As for his pedigree, I have some question marks about his sire's side.

For the record, I have a dozen Pure Gold daughters in my herd. And I've been breeding them to a Keynote son. Enough BW in that scenario for you? :lol:

I may have had one calf from the cross that exceeded a BW of 90 lb., but he was born in September on a lease place and I didn't see him until he was a couple of weeks old....so I can't be sure. But I'm in Texas - on native grass with little supplement.

Someone else mentioned a suspect pedigree in reference to Pure Gold, but I failed to notice anything in my search. If you don't want to post your thoughts on the board, please send them to me via e-mail or PM.

I don't think Pure Gold is a high growth bull, a little better than average. And I think he actually moderates frame when compared to bulls like Keynote. The pluses I see is the thickness that he puts in his offspring and the fact that he crosses well with a broad spectrum of different pedigrees/lineages.

The negative I see is, although his daughters milk really well, I have questions whether their udders/teats will hold up over the long haul. My oldest daughters of Pure Gold are 5 years old and I don't see a couple of them lasting more than another year or two.

George

I'm glad he works for you. I know of some others in the south who have used him with success and few problems. I know of some in other areas with the opposite experience. However, his epd's for calving ease and BW are a concern for me. Of the cattle I have seen, I would agree with you on the frame. I don't see that as an issue with him. I have also heard from a few others on the udder issue, but not many.

As for the pedigree, when I start looking at a bull to use, I will go back 8,9,10 generations. (Herfnet sure makes this a lot easier than the old days of having to get that info from the AHA) If you study a pedigree, you can look out for possible bad udders, lack of longevity, poor feet, poor carcass traits, etc. When I come up against a blank wall going back just 4 or 5 generations, I get a little leery. Call me old fashioned, but that kind of detail is important to me. Breeding cattle is a long process. A breeding mistake can take 4 or 5 years to correct. I don't want to do that to my own herd and definitely not to my customers. Again, it is speculation on my part. I may be wrong, but it was a choice I made and am comfortable with.

 

[Elder Statesman]

With the Titan 23D saga, it became routine to "speculate" about a bull's lineage anytime the bull was TOO big or TOO muscled up.

After reading McCann's "Battle of the Bull Runts", I came to the conclusion that there are few - if any - Hereford cattle whose pedigrees are 100% correct. The Harland bull is a perfect example. With DNA testing, those mistakes can now be identified and corrected. Such was not the case in the past.

George

Do you think there was or a problem with Titan's genetics or was it just speculation?

There is more to the Simmie issue than frame or muscle.

As for bulls being too big, there were big Herefords long before the continentals came to the US.

While there may be many pedigrees that are not 100% correct, there are quite a few bloodlines that are 100% "clean".

 

[Brandonm2]

As for the pedigree, when I start looking at a bull to use, I will go back 8,9,10 generations. (Herfnet sure makes this a lot easier than the old days of having to get that info from the AHA) If you study a pedigree, you can look out for possible bad udders, lack of longevity, poor feet, poor carcass traits, etc. When I come up against a blank wall going back just 4 or 5 generations, I get a little leery.

I probably need to stay out of this BUT how confident are you that that data is accurate for 8, 9, 10 generations??? I am not even talking so much about intentional dishonesty; but (especially before AI) a bull can jump a fence. Herdsman puts him back up the next day and 9 times out of 10 the person recording the birth a year later is going to forget (if he ever even knew that there could be a problem) is going to record the sire as the bull assigned to that breeding pasture. How about somebody recording a calf to the wrong cow. Hard mistake to make in a 20 cow herd. In a 100, 200, or 500 cow herd......not so difficult......especially before ear tags! I like looking all the way back to Domino (I wish Herfnet went even farther); BUT realistically I doubt that many of those trees are perfectly accurate.

 

[THG]

It looks like a lot of breeders really like 517. Could anyone explain why you like 517 so much?

THG

 

[JHH]

The only one on your list I would consider is 517.

While most of those bulls may be pretty in the ring, not sure about their contribution to the beef industry.

P606?? I have talked to enough people who have tried him to know that his negative 8.9 calving ease is legit.

122L?? His progeny ratios on IMF and REA are at 100-101. Nothing earth shattering there. As for the "great" Catalina 24H cow, her progeny ratios are below 100 for REA and IMF.

Now for bulls who produce cattle that will work in the pasture and on the rail.

One of you mentioned 9126J, which I would agree is a good one.

CL 1 Domino 484 Trait Leader in 7 catagories, has produced some sons and many daugthers that have gone on to be very productive in some top herds.

CJH L1 Domino 552 A true curve bender bull that produces good uddered females.

OXH Mark Domino 8020 Trait leader in 12 catagories. A true carcass bull who has withstood the test of time. His sire SR Mark I J215 is also a great bull.

Welcome aboard this great cattle board. I will have to say that being the author to this topic, I was only thinking about "Polled" Hereford bulls. You have mentioned bulls such as 552, 9126J, 484, 8020, and I am going to had to that list, 767G, OXH Mark Domino 0125, and Pure Gold.

THG

I will agree with you on 0125 as he goes back to 8020 and has enough performance data to justify his genetics.

I have not seen much data or progeny on 767G, but have talked to a few who have used him and like the results.

I am not a Pure Gold fan and have kept his genetics out of my herd.

Do either of you have any 0125 progeny? I am waiting for some in Feb.JHH

 

[Elder Statesman]

As for the pedigree, when I start looking at a bull to use, I will go back 8,9,10 generations. (Herfnet sure makes this a lot easier than the old days of having to get that info from the AHA) If you study a pedigree, you can look out for possible bad udders, lack of longevity, poor feet, poor carcass traits, etc. When I come up against a blank wall going back just 4 or 5 generations, I get a little leery.

I probably need to stay out of this BUT how confident are you that that data is accurate for 8, 9, 10 generations??? I am not even talking so much about intentional dishonesty; but (especially before AI) a bull can jump a fence. Herdsman puts him back up the next day and 9 times out of 10 the person recording the birth a year later is going to forget (if he ever even knew that there could be a problem) is going to record the sire as the bull assigned to that breeding pasture. How about somebody recording a calf to the wrong cow. Hard mistake to make in a 20 cow herd. In a 100, 200, or 500 cow herd......not so difficult......especially before ear tags! I like looking all the way back to Domino (I wish Herfnet went even farther); BUT realistically I doubt that many of those trees are perfectly accurate.

That is why I like to check those pedigrees. Not just to see the bloodlines, but the breeder as well. There are some breeders out there that don't forget a year later. More than you would think. I would put my money on some of those oldtimers to match a calf with the right cow every time, even without ear tags. I will agree some aren't perfectly accurate, but there are more than you think.

 

[Elder Statesman]

[/quote]

Do either of you have any 0125 progeny? I am waiting for some in Feb.JHH[/quote]

I'm in the same spot you are.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Rather interesting view point on Pure Gold Elder. I was looking at getting some semen to help bring some more muscle into our herd.

Know what you are talking about Brandonm, Found that one year in the form of a black baldie calf in the main herd. Since nobody would own up to their bull being out we shipped them both. Thats the fun part about raising Herefords while surrounded by blacks.

 

[Brandonm2]

Know what you are talking about Brandonm, Found that one year in the form of a black baldie calf in the main herd. Since nobody would own up to their bull being out we shipped them both. Thats the fun part about raising Herefords while surrounded by blacks.

You can catch those (the black makes them stand out); but back in the day when every breeding pasture for miles around had another Hereford bull in it (kinda like today in some place with Black bulls) there is going to be some cross fence shenanigans that go unnoticed which can mess up people's pedigree accuracy.

 

[Herefords.US]

A statement made by L. P. McCann in his book, "The Battle of Bull Runts" where he wrote:

"Poor fences, bad gates, lax management, incomplete or careless records and other human errors are responsible for about five percent (5%) error in the pedigrees of registered livestock, according to geneticists in the field of animal science."

George

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I probably need to stay out of this BUT how confident are you that that data is accurate for 8, 9, 10 generations??? I am not even talking so much about intentional dishonesty; but (especially before AI) a bull can jump a fence.

Um, you are talking about Herefords... Not many Herefords jump fences. I have seen a few wild ones go through or try, but those old gentle things most breeders raised didn't jump any fences. Heck you could keep them in a three foot high pen. :lol:

 

[Herefords.US]

Regarding Pure Gold's pedigree:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B595B5B265922272D&9=525A5F

The bull whose lineage disappears is:

Super ML Domino 45U

On the AHA website his pedigree shows up as:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=232B21&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5B5B59235A59232721

However, when you go the Canadian website it shows up as:

http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-b...56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=59585A5B2523582E21&9=5F505A

This frequently happens in animals registered in the AHA that have Canadian bred ancestors in their background. You have to go to the Canadian website to see the extended pedigree.

George

 

[Herefords.US]

With the Titan 23D saga, it became routine to "speculate" about a bull's lineage anytime the bull was TOO big or TOO muscled up.

After reading McCann's "Battle of the Bull Runts", I came to the conclusion that there are few - if any - Hereford cattle whose pedigrees are 100% correct. The Harland bull is a perfect example. With DNA testing, those mistakes can now be identified and corrected. Such was not the case in the past.

George

Do you think there was or a problem with Titan's genetics or was it just speculation?

There is more to the Simmie issue than frame or muscle.

As for bulls being too big, there were big Herefords long before the continentals came to the US.

While there may be many pedigrees that are not 100% correct, there are quite a few bloodlines that are 100% "clean".

My opinion is that 23D has Simmi in him. The diluter gene showing up in multiple descendents is the basis of that opinion. What I think doesn't matter. The AHA let his registration stand. So he is a registered Hereford bull.

I'm glad that someone else can remember that there were indeed BIG Herefords still around before the continentals were imported. It seems that most people look at the pictures of the "dinks" of the late 40s and 50s and think all cattle were bred down that small. Thank goodness there were some breeders that didn't chase that trend, just as there were some breeders that didn't chase the frame 8-9-10 giants later.

George

 

[Elder Statesman]

[I'm glad that someone else can remember that there were indeed BIG Herefords still around before the continentals were imported. It seems that most people look at the pictures of the "dinks" of the late 40s and 50s and think all cattle were bred down that small. Thank goodness there were some breeders that didn't chase that trend, just as there were some breeders that didn't chase the frame 8-9-10 giants later.

George

Amen to that on both ends of the spectrum. I'm glad to see there is starting to be an emphasis by some to moderate their cow size. Just be careful not to go too far.

 

[Herefords.US]

Amen to that on both ends of the spectrum. I'm glad to see there is starting to be an emphasis by some to moderate their cow size. Just be careful not to go too far.

What is your opinion of Ferry Carpenter bred cattle? And in particular, the bull King Ten and his son DR Achiever 8403?

George

 

[Brandonm2]

I probably need to stay out of this BUT how confident are you that that data is accurate for 8, 9, 10 generations??? I am not even talking so much about intentional dishonesty; but (especially before AI) a bull can jump a fence.

Um, you are talking about Herefords... Not many Herefords jump fences. I have seen a few wild ones go through or try, but those old gentle things most breeders raised didn't jump any fences. Heck you could keep them in a three foot high pen. :lol:

Straight Herefords (horned and polled) were always part of our herd here. I doubt that a year ever passed where one or more did not get out. Herefords don't wander around for the heck of it like Angus or Simmentals and they don't tear things up like Beefmasters or F1s but if you plant corn all the way up to the fence row..........they will eventually figure out a way to take a road trip. Frame 1s and 2s don't go over the fence they go THROUGH the fence, usually leaving the top wire intact and completely unmolested.

 

[Elder Statesman]

Amen to that on both ends of the spectrum. I'm glad to see there is starting to be an emphasis by some to moderate their cow size. Just be careful not to go too far.

What is your opinion of Ferry Carpenter bred cattle? And in particular, the bull King Ten and his son DR Achiever 8403?

George

Definitely some good carcass cattle. I think the man was ahead of his time. Moderate sized cattle that would work in a lot of environments. With King Ten, need to keep an eye on the udders, as you do with a lot of the older bloodlines. However, from what I have seen, it looks like Achiever helped clean up that problem. Achiever produced some good milking, long producing daughters. I would like to have a little more of those genetics in my herd. Have you used any of those genetics?

 

[Herefords.US]

I would like to have a little more of those genetics in my herd. Have you used any of those genetics?

In 2003, I went to Schlegel's here in Texas and bought 4 daughters of Achiever and one granddaughter who was a daughter of GK Genetic Explosion. All were older cows except one. Basically, I purchased every Achiever daughter/granddaughter in their herd that didn't also trace back to Prime Time/Titan 23D.

I'm very impressed with them. I already flushed one of the older cows and the younger Achiever daughter would be at/near the top of my list if I was going to flush another cow from my herd right now.

Like you, that is genetics that I'd definitely like to increase. I have a few straws of Achiever semen and have considered buying more - even at its lofty price.

George

 

[Herefords.US]

I'm glad to see there is starting to be an emphasis by some to moderate their cow size. Just be careful not to go too far.

Moderation of cow size. How far would you consider being "too far"?

George

 

[Elder Statesman]

I'm glad to see there is starting to be an emphasis by some to moderate their cow size. Just be careful not to go too far.

Moderation of cow size. How far would you consider being "too far"?

George

Under 5