Farmers - Immigration bill

[alisonb]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/farm ... s-19602912

So why are immigrants necessary, everyone else on welfare?

 

[greybeard]

Too many people here covet. They want jobs, but they don't want to work and aren't shy about stating it as a fact.

 

[john250]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/farmers-worry-fate-immigration-bills-19602912

So why are immigrants necessary, everyone else on welfare?

Short answer: YES! For work typically done by young males (associated with sweat) there is a definite shortage of workers. That includes most work on a farm. The migrants are big in keeping ag going. Policy needs to reflect that. If you make $200, and you're on "public assistance", and if you are dumb enough (or honest enough) to report that, your benefits will be cut by $200. Heck, I wouldn't sweat either.

 

[ga.prime]

That's right, nobody's going to do field work for less money than they can get for doing nothing. As soon as immigrants are able to get on the welfare rolls they quit working too.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

We run International Harvesters on our farm. Really hard workers for about $200 a day + driver. :lol2:

 

[Brute 23]

Im for an immigration bill that for every person that comes here we get to send on over there. :nod:

 

[TexasBred]

Im for an immigration bill that for every person that comes here we get to send on over there. :nod:

Won't work. Makes too much sense. :lol2:

 

[alisonb]

It is a sad day in the history of a country when it's citizens would rather sit on their arses than better themselves. It's happenning here too. Education is vital to change that mentality but I fear, looking at the bigger picture, that it is too late.

 

[Brute 23]

The first time a politician tried to buy a poor vote with a working man's money he should have been drug out in the street and stoned.

This is also the reason why not every one should be allowed to vote.

 

[greybeard]

The first time a politician tried to buy a poor vote with a working man's money he should have been drug out in the street and stoned.

This is also the reason why not every one should be allowed to vote.

There ain't that many rocks...

 

[cow pollinater]

At the start of citrus season two years ago when the economy had really taken a nosedive I was talking to one of the owners of a Sunkist packinghouse. We'd been walking through my orchard while the picking crew was working and about half the people we said hello to replied in English. I asked if that was normal and he laughed and said it wouldn't last more than a week or two and was waiting for things to get back to normal. On the second pick one month later I didn't speak to a single English speaker besides the foreman and his was broken.

 

[regolith]

Same story here and in the UK. I've heard some of the migrants here have doctorates or vet degrees from their home country, but they start at the bottom in the dairy industry.
I ain't that well qualified. Also a migrant. Started at the bottom.

In the UK I worked with a mix of nationalities in an orchard, good time and there was a decent bit of money to be earned for hard workers. Next time I did any fruit picking game was on a college farm and I was working alongside students who whined all day that this was slave labour and they were being abused?? World of difference.

I reckon there's a lot more opportunities to get ahead in life for people who are prepared to do the hard grafting.

So in the UK they employ kiwis in their orchards, while Brits fill some of the labour gaps in the NZ dairy industry... it's not all about the nationality of the worker, a lot is in that attitude to get out there and do whatever needs done; which travellers possess in greater abundance than those who stay at home. Employers in both countries are saying the same things about why local labour isn't available to them.

 

[CKC1586]

It is a sad day in the history of a country when it's citizens would rather sit on their arses than better themselves. It's happenning here too. Education is vital to change that mentality but I fear, looking at the bigger picture, that it is too late.

:nod: :tiphat:

 

[Commercialfarmer]

It is a sad day in the history of a country when it's citizens would rather sit on their arses than better themselves. It's happenning here too. Education is vital to change that mentality but I fear, looking at the bigger picture, that it is too late.

Well I have a different take. Who is smarter than who? Who is working for who? I won't take advantage of the system because I believe it is amoral. Morals and education are quite different. Offer someone a free lunch, they probably won't ask who is paying. You want someone to work... stop offering a free lunch- especially to the capable. All we have done here is expand who gets the free stuff.

Anyone else hear that there are more full time USDA employees than there are full time farmers?

 

[alisonb]

Morals and education are quite different.

I hear what you are saying but how does a person acquire morals - through education. A child being schooled should be taught knowledge, skills and character - at home and at school. If the child's parents(role models) do not have those qualities who will teach the child in those all important initial years to develop good habits and virtues? The moral maturity of a learner = continued education. Through education you will change the mind set of an individual.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Morals and education are quite different.

I hear what you are saying but how does a person acquire morals - through education. A child being schooled should be taught knowledge, skills and character - at home and at school. If the child's parents(role models) do not have those qualities who will teach the child in those all important initial years to develop good habits and virtues? The moral maturity of a learner = continued education. Through education you will change the mind set of an individual.

I'd like to agree with you, but I can't. Known many people with nothing more than a 3rd grade education that were honest as the day is long, served others before themselves, fed kids that weren't their own (when they barely had enough as it was), worked hard and eventually made something from themselves. They learned from the good examples set around them. Know many more people today that are about as highly educated as you can get, and are some of the worst examples of people you can meet. More interested in what is in it for them. I'm no saint. But when I feel humbled and see morality, it usually has nothing to do with education and more with compassion and lack of self interest. And sometimes a child is better at teaching that than an adult. Maybe the answer is more in how we don't screw up a kid with education and all the "me" propaganda.

I tend to think that the liberal education system is why my country is in the trouble it is. If we brought back the good book to the schools and churches, then that would be education I think would make a difference- forgiveness, honesty, respect for elders, respect for the law, giving without expectation of receiving, helping widows and orphans, being of humble mind, work as if working for the Lord and not for man, loving your neighbor as yourself and even your enemy. Until then, we can throw whatever new age Dr. Spock speak we want at them, we will get the same or worse results. Good has a source, until we accept that, the wheels will keep falling off.

 

[Dega Moo]

Morals and education are quite different.

I hear what you are saying but how does a person acquire morals - through education. A child being schooled should be taught knowledge, skills and character - at home and at school. If the child's parents(role models) do not have those qualities who will teach the child in those all important initial years to develop good habits and virtues? The moral maturity of a learner = continued education. Through education you will change the mind set of an individual.

I'd like to agree with you, but I can't. Known many people with nothing more than a 3rd grade education that were honest as the day is long, served others before themselves, fed kids that weren't their own (when they barely had enough as it was), worked hard and eventually made something from themselves. They learned from the good examples set around them. Know many more people today that are about as highly educated as you can get, and are some of the worst examples of people you can meet. More interested in what is in it for them. I'm no saint. But when I feel humbled and see morality, it usually has nothing to do with education and more with compassion and lack of self interest. And sometimes a child is better at teaching that than an adult. Maybe the answer is more in how we don't screw up a kid with education and all the "me" propaganda.

I tend to think that the liberal education system is why my country is in the trouble it is. If we brought back the good book to the schools and churches, then that would be education I think would make a difference- forgiveness, honesty, respect for elders, respect for the law, giving without expectation of receiving, helping widows and orphans, being of humble mind, work as if working for the Lord and not for man, loving your neighbor as yourself and even your enemy. Until then, we can throw whatever new age Dr. Spock speak we want at them, we will get the same or worse results. Good has a source, until we accept that, the wheels will keep falling off.

Ever hear of Ayn Rand?

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I'm all ears....

 

[Dega Moo]

Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged? Ayn Rand is as close to a conservative deity as one can be, although in her case deity is probably a poor word choice. Ann Coulter channels Ayn Rand and Rush certainly isn't far behind. Ronald Reagan's "Greed is good" pretty well sums up Ayn Rand. Her point was always that we can't and shouldn't act for the greater good but should act selfishly and for our own good. She represents pure and unadulterated capitalism. Point being it's more than okay for 'them' to be interested in what is in it for 'them' if you are conservative. The do-gooders want to decide what's right for others .. (your 'with compassion and lack of self interest.') that warps and distorts our society and our economy and I would say is anti-capitalistic. I'm not saying you're intent on being one of those do-gooders, but I would ask if you're not interested in your own best interests, what are you interested in?

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I'm familiar, though I haven't read the book, but is on my list of things to do when I get time. I was interested in where you were going with your question.

First premise I believe: the world will always have the rich, and it will always have the poor. The difference in each governmental system is how they are determined, how many will be distributed in each class, can they move from one class to another and the depths or heights each class will generally reach.

Second: the world we are born into will never be truly fair. Matter of fact, if it were, I would be destined for an eternity that I deserve vs one that has been granted by Grace. Therefore, I gladly accept this fact even though my situation in the past or maybe even at this present time may not be as affluent as others.

I firmly believe that a capitalistic society is by far the best system to drive innovation and advancement. Innovation improves the life style of all classes. The poor in an advanced society may have luxuries non-existent to royalty of less advanced society. The poor in America today have air conditioners, cars, refrigerators, and have a body fat index never seen at any time or place in history. Agricultural innovation and maximizing yield potential has lead to a surplus of grains and food.

A socialist society does not support an environment of hard work and innovation. Advancements are slower. China is known globally to steal patents to compete with the US. Why? Is their population less intelligent? No. The environment of taking chances for financial gain is not present and people are not free to pursue their dreams and goals. The USSR folded, East Germany folded, North Korea is in dire straights.

The US is in trouble, not because of its capitalistic ideas and past, but because of the socialistic programs strapped on its back.

Government cannot legislate morality, it cannot function as the family bread winner, nor artificially elect true winners or losers. A free market can only test this and produce the winner. Only capitalism rewards the hard or smart worker.

Assistance and compassion work, when people feel responsible to better themselves or feel responsible and appreciative of the assistance. When they feel entitled to other people's money, it fails. There is no incentive.

Market greed is good. Personal reward for hard work is good.

This is different from personal charity and compassion. These are two very different items.

I'm very compassionate, and I am more effective than a central government attempting to force the same result. One fails where the other succeeds.

Americans are very compassionate, look at all the money and time donated after each major disaster. This is above and beyond the money wasted through taxes on FEMA and such.

Where do people distill receive the most help? Friends, neighbors and churches. But millions and billions are given and blown by big programs.

Capitalism doesn't limit my potential to succeed or give. Socialism does.