Ethics when selling cattle

[alftn]

As a Reg. seed stock breeder you should;

1 know your cattle genetics
2 if your cattle have one (genetic disorder) , you should destory them? Make them terminal?
3 let buyer know they are carriers , maybe be carriers
4 The Assa. that reg. these defected cattle should inform everyone , about every animal, with a problem or expected problem, and should move swiftly to do away with it..
5 Present the cattle truthfully

Just my toughts you should cull at least 60 % of you bull calves evey year, minimal, In order to improve the your breed .

 

[KNERSIE]

What's the purpose of your rambling? Guilty conscience speaking?

 

[alftn]

AS usually there is that Arrogants you are so proud of ...If you do not like the topic stay off it, I do not need you K.from the 3rd world.
I will take ignorance over arrogants any time, because ignorance is easier to fix...

 

[backhoeboogie]

Ethics are simply ethics no matter what you do.

Your getting deeper and getting into a business where name means everything.

How many times have you heard the old addy, "The acorn didn't fall very far from the tree?" Your kids are going to have the same surname as you. What's that worth to ya or do ya even care?

What you got against Knersie? Turth hurt or something? I don't get it. You're blasting good folks. Cut your losses and get over this before you alienate everyone.

 

[cypressfarms]

AS usually there is that Arrogants you are so proud of ...If you do not like the topic stay off it, I do not need you K.from the 3rd world.
I will take ignorance over arrogants any time, because ignorance is easier to fix...

Why are you coming down so hard on Knersie? Ignorance shows itself in many ways....even in grammer.


Is the purpose of the post something that you would like all seedstock producers to do, or do you have a personal reason for posting this (maybe you got the bad end of a deal). I don't know, but personal attacks seem quite juvenile.

By the way, my personal opinion is that MUCH less than 40% of bull calves should be kept for breeding purposes.

 

[novatech]

AS usually there is that Arrogants you are so proud of ...If you do not like the topic stay off it, I do not need you K.from the 3rd world.
I will take ignorance over arrogants any time, because ignorance is easier to fix...

Why are you coming down so hard on Knersie? Ignorance shows itself in many ways....even in grammer.


Is the purpose of the post something that you would like all seedstock producers to do, or do you have a personal reason for posting this (maybe you got the bad end of a deal). I don't know, but personal attacks seem quite juvenile.

By the way, my personal opinion is that MUCH less than 40% of bull calves should be kept for breeding purposes.

I think your both wrong. The percentage that should be kept can only be based on the quality of the individual. That number will vary depending on the quality the breeder starts with.
Some breeders could legitimately keep 90% where others should castrate all of them.
As far as the other part I guess I could find something wrong with just about anybody if I chose to.

 

[cypressfarms]

Nova,

Your right, the amount kept for breeding should be directly related to the quality of the individuals; not a set percentage. I'm more comfortable with the way stallions are kept (Arabians) and only the best of the best should be kept for breeding purposes. It's the only way to improve the breed over time. I know with bulls you can relax that theory somewhat, but I can't help but think that if more people cut, there would be better genetics within a few generations.

 

[dun]

only the best of the best should be kept for breeding purposes. It's the only way to improve the breed over time. I know with bulls you can relax that theory somewhat, but I can't help but think that if more people cut, there would be better genetics within a few generations.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Angus Cowman]

Watch what ya say guys because last yr I made a comment about registered breeders not culling hard enough and I got a spanking on here especially when I said that alot of small breeders had the attitude that just because an animal had reg. papers they thought that every hfr was a replacement and every bull was the next great thing
I know it doesn't just happen in small breeders but a big breeder that produces crap won't be in business long and a small breeder can keep muddling along and find some idiot to buy their animals because it is a REG animal
happened with the Horse industry about 10-15 yrs ago and like I always said you can't ride them papers or in the cow business you can't get a calf crop out of those papers

 

[AudieWyoming]

I tend to agree with novatech here, one caveat; Everyone has a different pocketbook to work with, many situations could use a pretty ordinary bull and it would still improve their cows. That said you should always try to use the best available bull within your budget.

Not every registered animal should be a breeder and there are plenty of good calves from good programs that don't need a piece of paper to be herd improvers. I would add just because a bull has been collected doesn't make him a good bull or mean those genes should be propagated.

I have seen countless bulls, some of which brought alot of money at collection facilities that no self respecting rancher would let near his cows. As the owner (can't come up with his name) of Rocky Mountain Sire Service told us; "If we only collected the good ones, we couldn't stay in business.

I think your both wrong. The percentage that should be kept can only be based on the quality of the individual. That number will vary depending on the quality the breeder starts with.
Some breeders could legitimately keep 90% where others should castrate all of them.
As far as the other part I guess I could find something wrong with just about anybody if I chose to.

 

[KNERSIE]

many situations could use a pretty ordinary bull and it would still improve their cows

It is those herds who can least afford an ordinary bull.

 

[angus9259]

I don't know that how many bulls you keep or herd culling procedures is really a question of "ethics" - could be good business or bad business but not an ethics issue.

 

[novatech]

I don't know that how many bulls you keep or herd culling procedures is really a question of "ethics" - could be good business or bad business but not an ethics issue.

It becomes an ethics issue when they are marketed as something they are not. Looking at a lot of the advertising today bulls are being marketed more for their pedigree than anything else. The advertising is based on the qualities of the parents or grandparents. Ignorant buyers pick them up and perpetuate garbage and end up selling the same way they bought. I think the paper is important but should never out weigh the reality of proven live performance of the individual.
I also beleive to many people are buying bulls on strictly potential. If they go out and spend several thousand dollars on a bull it is human nature to brag on the purchase no matter how sorry the bull turns out to be. It is the rare individual that will admit screwing up after investing the kind of money some of these bulls are bringing today.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Nova, You didn't mention feed. A bull running on grass in the pasture can look different than one who has been on a large diet of feed. If I am going to have to put 80 calves on creep to get the same quality, that bull is worthless to me. If premium grass, premium hay, and plenty of mineral don't do the job, something is going to change. I don't live in the corn belt.

 

[dun]

Nova, You didn't mention feed. A bull running on grass in the pasture can look different than one who has been on a large diet of feed. If I am going to have to put 80 calves on creep to get the same quality, that bull is worthless to me. If premium grass, premium hay, and plenty of mineral don't do the job, something is going to change. I don't live in the corn belt.

That's where the importance of selecting bulls from herds that manage the same or very similar to you do comes in.

 

[novatech]

Nova, You didn't mention feed. A bull running on grass in the pasture can look different than one who has been on a large diet of feed. If I am going to have to put 80 calves on creep to get the same quality, that bull is worthless to me. If premium grass, premium hay, and plenty of mineral don't do the job, something is going to change. I don't live in the corn belt.

No argument here. The cost of production is what is on every one's mind today. I do think however that if one breeds for one thing he does not necessarily have to give up on the other. I think that is where the commercial cattleman comes into play. Generating crosses from highly economical cows that do well in the feed lot and produce profitable beef.
A bull that falls apart in the pasture will generally be less efficient in the feed lot.
There are way to many bulls being sold that are fed up to be sold and end up not making it in the pasture. I don't mind those that polish up a bull but when they do it to deceive buyers it is definitely unethical.

 

[novatech]

I guess I need to add something on to my posts. What I think is ethical and what is not is for me to determine about myself. What others may or may not feel is ethical is up to them. How far we want to carry this ethics thing is up to the individual. Is it ethical to raise and sell black cattle that are not Angus? Is it ethical to breed with a bloodline that we know is tainted somewhere back in time? Will we support a product where it is labled one thing and is actually something else? My posts are just how I feel. You just have to decide for yourself.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I guess I need to add something on to my posts. What I think is ethical and what is not is for me to determine about myself. What others may or may not feel is ethical is up to them. How far we want to carry this ethics thing is up to the individual. Is it ethical to raise and sell black cattle that are not Angus? Is it ethical to breed with a bloodline that we know is tainted somewhere back in time? Will we support a product where it is labled one thing and is actually something else? My posts are just how I feel. You just have to decide for yourself.

I have been reading your posts for a long time now. You're a man of your word. Your word is good enough for me.

 

[Frankie]

I don't know that how many bulls you keep or herd culling procedures is really a question of "ethics" - could be good business or bad business but not an ethics issue.

It becomes an ethics issue when they are marketed as something they are not. Looking at a lot of the advertising today bulls are being marketed more for their pedigree than anything else. The advertising is based on the qualities of the parents or grandparents. Ignorant buyers pick them up and perpetuate garbage and end up selling the same way they bought. I think the paper is important but should never out weigh the reality of proven live performance of the individual.

Are you suggesting unethical people are mis-representing pedigrees? If you're advertising a yearling bull, there aren't any calves available to look at. There's his own performance, but I'm just as interested in a heifer's dam's production as I am her own performace.

I also beleive to many people are buying bulls on strictly potential. If they go out and spend several thousand dollars on a bull it is human nature to brag on the purchase no matter how sorry the bull turns out to be. It is the rare individual that will admit screwing up after investing the kind of money some of these bulls are bringing today.

Potential? What else does a young bull have to offer? If you wait for him to be proven, he'll be breeding his daughters!

 

[backhoeboogie]

Potential? What else does a young bull have to offer? If you wait for him to be proven, he'll be breeding his daughters!

You completely lost me - again. It all seems like jiberish.

John Doe changes bulls TO KEEP FROM BREEDING RETAINED daughters. I've been driving by and seeing that bull, on pasture, taking care of business. Low birth weight, the right breed, calves grow out well. John Doe puts out the word that he has a 4 year old for sale. I'm interested. Especially if John Doe takes care of his cows and I'm not looking for a terminal bull. This happens all the time. Why would I buy a pampered bull from a horse trader? The pedigree lets me know where he came from and any or no relationship to the bull I currently run. Not much more. I've seen his results.