downed cow

[backhoeboogie]

LisaJoy,

Ms BHB has been following your post with interest. She couldn't wait to hear the results and was bummed out that you would be gone all weekend. When she read the outcome, all she can think is "unbelieveable". She called me at work. She called her brother too and he had to read the entire thread, all 7 pages.

She and I have fought to save calves and such. We lost a wonderful heifer last May. Anyway, she too is a bit of a softy, but I like her getting emotionally involved. Cattle interest is something else she and I have in common.

Personally, I just want to say thanks for sharing this whole story with all of us. I am very sorry for your loss and I hope it all works out for everyone involved. The business man sounds like a good one; since he was totally honest about it all.

Bear in mind that you'll lose more if you stay in the business. If you could have rolled the cow a great deal the first day and got her on her feet, you'd have been better off. If the guy could have floated her right off the bat, the cow would have had a better chance. "Next time" you'll be all the wiser.

For me personally, "floating" a cow is a new technology that I had never heard of. Hence, I learned something as well. It may save one of mine some day.

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[bgm]

An interesting post. I have never heard of floating a cow before. I'm sorry for your loss as well.

But as for cow floating, I think the only place a downed cow should be floating is through the pearly gates of the great hamburger stand in the sky.

But I guess to each their own, good luck to you in the future.

 

[Ryder]

Lets see your cow maybe had a 50/50 chance of making it. What was your cow worth before the problem. If he replaces her with one of equal value it wouldn't be fair to him. Say he give's you 50 % of what the cow was worth. We did say she had a 50% chance of making it. Now for his services for floating. We know she wouldn't have made it without it so he should be compensated for that. So, 50 percent of the value for your cow minus his services should be about fair for both of you. I bet it would be about a wash either way.

I pretty much agree with Bama. Your cow was not worth 100 per cent. Maybe more than 50, but not 100. He owes you for shooting your cow, but you owe him for his services.

I just read this. Had no idea it would be this interesting. Thanks for telling your story.

 

[MoGal]

I agree with the ones who say he owed you "salvage" value. You didn't have a healthy cow nor could you have butchered her at a regular meat locker plant since she couldn't walk. To expect him to replace her with a good, healthy cow is too much. Packer prices in this area are 40 to 50 cents on the pound (and even those have to be able to walk).

I can't say its an unfortunate mistake as I've not seen the cow. Maybe they did the best thing for her.

 

[chiefgriz]

First of all,not everyone on this forum is big-time cattle raisers. For a larger outfit, destroying a downed cow may make more sense due to the time involved to save the cow. Time is money. The cost of 1 cow in the big picture may not justify investing your time when theres no gaurantee of the cow making it. People with smaller herds, or as 1 person put it, "hobbyist", generally tend to bemore attached emotionally to their cattle. If the woman was willing to try and save the cow, more power to her. I've had a couple of dogs get parvo in the past. Had taken the pup to get vaccinated for parvo and the following week he had it. Did he get it from the vets? who knows. But I didnt put a bullet in his head. Obviously a couple of the gurus on this site would have. I was willing to pay the vet for putting the pups on I.V. and crossing my fingers. The bill was more than replacing the pups, but they lived in both cases. All had to do with attachment. If the pup was improving and looked as though it was going to recover, then a vet assistant put it to sleep by mistake, I've got a problem with it. If that would have happened, I would absolutely expect the bill to be dropped and a get a fair compensation for the pup. Whats so different in this case. The key is, the cow was improving, not declining.

 

[cypressfarms]

I've been following this one from the sidelines from the start.

JMO:

I would take him up on his offer to give you a replacement heifer, but I would pay him for any services that he provided to you (floating ,etc.)

By doing this, he keeps good word of mouth, and his integrity intact. You keep your integrity by offering to pay for the services they provided. They did provide services, and however unfortunate the end result was, that doesn't change the fact that they did provide services. I know some feel that you are not "owed" full value by him, but he obviously has two things motivating him: one, he may be sincere in his thoughts and he may have been pulling for the cow as well. Two if he's like most small business' word of mouth is everything. By giving you a heifer, it's cheap insurance for him to keep the word of mouth good.

I'd say you both have integrity, and it will work it out o.k. Sorry about the cow, though, especially since she was improving.

 

[LisaJoy]

This has been so interesting to get all of your different opinions on this situation, especially coming from a beginner's perspective.
After reading other topics on this board, which I enjoy doing very much and have learned great amounts from already, I do have a question for Caustic..... I thought that "beginner's board" meant it is a safe place where it is ok to admit that we don't know it all already and ask what may seem like obviously stupid questions to seasoned cattle breeders? I place great value in this opportunity to get information that is been there/done that, (like it or not ) from so many experienced people here. This board is invaluable! But, I'm sorry. I read comments you made referring to my (or a very similar) situation, in another thread, and it made me wonder why you hang out where us frustrating beginners are trying to learn? It sounds like we drive you crazy. Sorry if that comment/question was not appropriate. I have a feeling that you have a lot of experience and valuable knowledge that can be a great asset to lots of people as we all try our best to do what we feel we're supposed to in this game called life. I guess you helped me and made my skin a little tougher. ;-)
Anyways, we are here to learn.....which I really have like how I would do things much differently if this happens again to a cow/heifer. I listened to my vets for the first 4 days telling me to let her rest. Not until I got frustrated with them did I start searching out ways to see if there were options. She never had the look of death, (until she was shot!). I know that look, and she was fighting so I wanted to try to give her a chance if there was one. I realize not everyone has the time/interest or benefit in doing that, which is totally cool, I just happen to be able to take the time and have great interest in health/healing (humans and animals alike). Probably why I'm studying to be a massage therapist. OK, enough of this...just had to get that off my chest and I hope I didn't offend anyone.
I have not spoken to the float man since our Sunday night meeting but will do it today. I wanted to think it thru some more (and pray) and get an opinion from a vet that is not associated with this situation. I asked them if they had an animal in their care for treatment of a serious injury and it was making positive progress, but still not out of the woods, and they accidently put it to sleep, what would they do?
That's happened before, they have read about cases where it leads to big law suits. (That's not my interest at all.) The most common solution she read was to forgive the bill and replace the animal...and be thankful for insurance.

I'll let you know what our converstation today comes to. I'm going to ask him how he feels what would be fair for both of us.
He is a sincere, animal caring person and I respect him regardless of this accident.

 

[warpaint]

LisaJoy, I wish there were more folks like you in this world. I commend you highly on your level headedness. If this had happened to me, I don't think that I could have been as calm over it. I'm sure you will decide what is best for all concerned. :clap:

 

[eric]

Lisa, there's no reason to apoligize for anything you've done. Not all of us are big time cattle ranchers who shoot every cow that gets a snotty nose. In fact, most of us are probably in your situation and would do whatever it takes to save a cow, as long as it's reasonable. The hydrotherapy was probably gonna cost you around $300. Personally, I wouldnt blink an eye at spending $300 to save one of my cows. I wouldnt miss the $300, but I would miss seeing the cow out there everyday. To some of these guys, their cows are only a paycheck, and while there's nothing wrong with that, they just cant understand those of us who are in a different situation. When they sell calves, it's probably a joyful day for them, as they know they'll be getting a big check soon. When we sell calves, it's always a sad day because 1/2 our herd is gone and we cant wait till the new calves start dropping.
As far as your personal situation, I would let him get you another cow and make sure you pay him for his services. Anyone who owns a business has had employee screw ups, and some of them have cost us plenty. I've had a few days when it would have saved me money by just staying in bed and not even opening up the doors, but thats the chances and responsibilities you take on when you run your own business. You just try to win alot more than you lose. The man is probably gonna be out $300-$400 from his pocket, but he is going to receive a tremendous amount of good "word of mouth" advertising and it will let people know the kind of business he runs. On the other hand, if he tries to put the screws to you, then you can bet that the word will get out about that too.

 

[TheLazyM]

Lisajoy, i dont think you have anything tobe sorry for. this thing about "Hobby Farmers" is a man made title. just for an eye open.Alabama is an agraculturl state. its probally not leading in cattlesales but i know its not dead last niether. the average herd in alabama is 20-30 head. thats right. now there is places running a 100 or more but the mainstream is under 30. i know some that would shot the cow but i know some that would give her every chance they could. i myself fall right in between the 2. i do everything that i can that is practil. you are here to learn. so learn dont let em bother you. my neighbor is 73 years old, walks on his own feet. cuts, rack,and bale his own hay. i help him get it out of the most of the time. all he has done his whole life is raise cattle. i asked him this morning about floating a cow he never heard of it but said " it just might work,never thought of it" up 2 years ago he had 200+ head. he had a stroke down at the barn scared his wife to death and he cut his herd down to 65. he says it not as hard to keep up with that many.

 

[Beefy]

the cow would have been up and moving in the next few days. i would take a replacement and pay the man his bill.

 

[aplusmnt]

Obviously the man doing the floating thought the cow had a chance or he would have or should have told you to shoot it. So his willingness to accept your money and your willingness to spend it showed the cow had value.

 

[aplusmnt]

Obviously the man doing the floating thought the cow had a chance or he would have or should have told you to shoot it. So his willingness to accept your money and your willingness to spend it showed the cow had value.

 

[Farmhand]

Some on here are talking like only big operators put cattle down and then it's because they just don't want to mess with it. That idea is wrong. I'm small. I would have shot that cow before I spent $$ to float it. My pocketbook just doesn't have enough in it to be able to pay for something like that. You also won't find me paying a vet for expensive treatments on pets. Not because I don't want to save the pet/cow but because the money just isn't there. There comes a time when you have to decide if you can justify the expense. Big $ on a cow that may make it but may not make it doesn't work for me. Even then, you don't know if she will be 100% if she does pull through. As for pets, the only pay back is their companionship. Kids have to eat first. Now I've been considered one of the softies on here but there comes a time when reality makes decisions for us - even decisions we don't like.

 

[ollie']

Some on here are talking like only big operators put cattle down and then it's because they just don't want to mess with it. That idea is wrong. I'm small. I would have shot that cow before I spent $$ to float it. My pocketbook just doesn't have enough in it to be able to pay for something like that. You also won't find me paying a vet for expensive treatments on pets. Not because I don't want to save the pet/cow but because the money just isn't there. There comes a time when you have to decide if you can justify the expense. Big $ on a cow that may make it but may not make it doesn't work for me. Even then, you don't know if she will be 100% if she does pull through. As for pets, the only pay back is their companionship. Kids have to eat first. Now I've been considered one of the softies on here but there comes a time when reality makes decisions for us - even decisions we don't like.

Bravo!

 

[ollie']

Obviously the man doing the floating thought the cow had a chance or he would have or should have told you to shoot it. So his willingness to accept your money and your willingness to spend it showed the cow had value.

The cow didn't have an actual value, she had an expected value. If the cow would have walked after the first floating would you also be willing to pay for the expected several floats or would you just want to pay the actual cost? I think if I was on a jury I would award nothing more than the actual value of the cow (nearly nothing) and for the services rendered, (nearly nothing) and call it a wash. He buries your cow for free and doesn't charge you for the bullet. Square deal.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Obviously the man doing the floating thought the cow had a chance or he would have or should have told you to shoot it. So his willingness to accept your money and your willingness to spend it showed the cow had value.

The cow didn't have an actual value, she had an expected value. If the cow would have walked after the first floating would you also be willing to pay for the expected several floats or would you just want to pay the actual cost? I think if I was on a jury I would award nothing more than the actual value of the cow (nearly nothing) and for the services rendered, (nearly nothing) and call it a wash. He buries your cow for free and doesn't charge you for the bullet. Square deal.

I agree the old cull had no value when he pulled up.

 

[Farmhand]

Obviously the man doing the floating thought the cow had a chance or he would have or should have told you to shoot it. So his willingness to accept your money and your willingness to spend it showed the cow had value.

I don't necessarily agree with you on this one. He provides a service, nothing more. It is up to you as a consumer to decide if you want to use the service. He made no guarantee that her cow would be 100% cured by using his service.

 

[aplusmnt]

Obviously the man doing the floating thought the cow had a chance or he would have or should have told you to shoot it. So his willingness to accept your money and your willingness to spend it showed the cow had value.

The cow didn't have an actual value, she had an expected value. If the cow would have walked after the first floating would you also be willing to pay for the expected several floats or would you just want to pay the actual cost? I think if I was on a jury I would award nothing more than the actual value of the cow (nearly nothing) and for the services rendered, (nearly nothing) and call it a wash. He buries your cow for free and doesn't charge you for the bullet. Square deal.

I would agree accept in any business if you provide a service you should only do so if you providing it believe in what you do. With him accepting the work and expecting to be paid for it, you should be able to expect him to provide a professional service that he is selling. And shooting the wrong cow is not rendering the professional service that he offers to his customers.

If the cow had no value he should not be offering this service, it would then become a scam he is pulling on people. But since he offers it, and people pay for it. Maybe there is no guarantee it will work and that should be expected. But shooting the wrong cow is not the kind of customer service he should be providing.

Maybe the whole floating of a cow is a scam, maybe the heifer should have been shot, but if this is the case the guy should not have been offering a service to try to save her.

And if he is offering this service for hire, he should be sure he does not shoot the wrong cow. So either he is a scam artist milking people of money for downed cows, or his service is legitimate and he messed up and shot the wrong cow, either way he should pay for ripping people off for a service that does not work, or for making a mistake and killing the wrong animal.

I think there is two separate issues here,

1. Should the heifer have been floated in first place
2. Should a guy providing a medical service to your cow pay if he shoots it by accident.

They are two separate issues. on the first one I do not know i was not there to see the potential of the heifer at hand

But on the second one I do know shooting the wrong animal is not a very good business practice. And he should pay.

 

[dcara]

I think he should be paid for the services he provided, AND should reimburse you for the cow. The only question I have is how to figure the value of the cow. At the time its demise I think it was technically still a downer which has close to $0 value. If it would have made it I doubt you would have got any more calves from it so its only value would be freezer beef since I don't think you have tried to get rid of it at the sale barn (lets not even start that discussion).