Dilemma or maybe not ;-? 2011 Gelbvieh bull calf

[hillsdown]

This is Mr HD's favorite bull calf this year and he is also the only bull calf out of my clean up bull that I didn't castrate . Unfortunately two things have now popped up from his head that were not there a few months ago, fortunately they are scurs as his sire has scurs in his pedigree. I do really like him too and he is growing very well and his dam is a very nice looking dark red GV . However I have found as of late that convincing commercial buyers that scurs are NOT horns is a real pita . Don't know now to bother feeding him out this winter for the seedstock group or cull him as a feeder next month . Totally confused, or not worry at all ,maybe not good enough .. ? Really am considering selling anyone with scurs in their pedigree so do not have to deal with this anymore or just selling the whole lot and not have to deal with any of this. :bang:

His DOB is Feb 23, bw 89 lbs unassisted ,I would guess he is a least 600lbs now , will know when we ween and weigh the calves next month.

 

[bluedog]

don"t look like scurs to me? but looks like a nice bull.

 

[snickers]

those do look more like horns to me but what do i know. lol

 

[wbvs58]

Geez you have some feed there. What happens to it when the snow comes, can they get to it through the snow?
Ken

 

[hillsdown]

those do look more like horns to me but what do i know. lol

LOL, they move back and forth like grizzle so they are definitely scurs, this 2009 bull had scurs as well and they were long like this guys too. They also did not really "pop" until he was almost 6 months old . So unless cattle can be horned and have scurs ,nope they are scurs. I will leave that genetic conundrum up to the genetic experts like Randiliana. ;-)

Both bulls are out of the same sire who was scurred ,and both dams polled.

 

[hillsdown]

Geez you have some feed there. What happens to it when the snow comes, can they get to it through the snow?
Ken

Ken we have feed everywhere this year ,we also have a ton of water ,so getting the cattle to the feed has been a problem. The man made bridge that the cattle would use in one of the quarters to get from pasture to pasture washed away and I had to rescue some calves and cattle that were stranded last week. Will not complain though as this is much easier to deal with than a drought and less of a heartbreak. The cattle can graze through snow as long as it is not frozen ,so they get to stay out as long as it is possible . The main thing here with being hilly is that if they do have to go to the drinkers and it is really icy I have to bring them all in and feed. Have had a few too many close calls with cattle "skiing" down the hills.

 

[wbvs58]

HD, our last summer was very wet too, had to juggle the cattle a bit, even now the end of winter some areas are still very wet. I don't complain prefer it to drought any day.
I am looking forward to seeing and hearing about the change of seasons and how you handle it, as the higher latitudes of the northern hemisphere go into winter. I guess you are not looking forward to winter, but it is a bit like death and taxes, it is inevitable.
I do like your Gelbvieh bulls. I know what you mean by the scurs, buyers might aggree they are not significant, but they still pick the other one. You don't try taking them off with a hot iron? I guess that would be deceptive to buyers, but with things like that, often if you tell them that they had scurs removed they would accept them because they look clean rather than look like "Little Devils".
Ken

 

[Lucky_P]

You can remove scurs - either with a pair of Barnes dehorners or a dehorning iron(when they're small), if buyer resistance is an issue - though if you were selling that calf as a potential herdsire, you'd ethically need to inform the purchaser of his scur status.
Shoot, you might even be able to get an elastrator band around the base of that calf's scurs, and they'd come off in about a month - but give a tetanus toxoid a couple of weeks beforehand.
Some folks claim that a scurred bull is heterozygous polled, but I'm not convinced that that is always the case.

Scurs can skate along unexpressed for generations once you start breeding the horns off of cattle.
Females must inherit 2 copies of the scur gene in order to express scurs, whereas bulls/steers only have to inherit the gene from one parent in order to be scurred. There's a wide range in expression of the gene, as well; I've had some with tiny little 'scab' scurs that you had to part the hair to even see, and others with honkin' big things that looked like full-grown horns - that flopped around, as they had no bony core.

All of my current herd (~75 females) are smooth polled, except for one (de)horned cow; chances are good that her daughters/grandaughters may be carrying the scur gene, and it may rear its head again at some time in the future. One heifer that'll be calving out soon is out of a dam that threw scurred bull calves; did this heifer inherit the scur gene? I dunno - neither she nor her dam had visible scurs.

 

[hillsdown]

Most calves that are horned can be identified at birth or shortly after, and almost always by weaning
time. Distinguishing between smooth-polled and scurred-polled is more difficult. Scurs, a rudimentary
horn growth, are often not seen until cattle are nearly a year old or sometimes even older. Scurs are
usually blunt and rounded at the end, short for their diameter, and attached only to the skin.
Occasionally the scur will become solidly attached to the skull, particularly on bulls, when they are
several years old. Scurred cattle should be classified as polled since they do have a polled gene. Only
polled animals can express the scurred trait.

http://www.limousin.com.au/Technical/scur.pdf

I do usually remove horns and scurs, if his had the been horns would have been removed at birth, however as in the case with scurs they do not even pierce the surface until later. Once my cattle are turned out they are not touched again unless sick or injured (which is hardly ever) until fall work up. Also they are PB registered so it will say on their BC if they are H S P .

Shoot, you might even be able to get an elastrator band around the base of that calf's scurs

I have yet to see a successful dehorning by that Lucky and did try it once and it didn't work either. Don't know how accurate that link is, will have to ask Dr U more about it when I speak to him this week.

Thanks Ken and bluedog , I like him too.

 

[KNERSIE]

They definately are quite big scurs at that age, I agree with Lucky-P to use a Barnes dehorner. Good looking calf, but he is a touch straight in the hocks.

 

[double v]

Good calf, if buyers are hung up on scurs sell him as a feeder take the money, but he's looking good enough to use in a program. I would keep him and eye appeal will sell him, he will also help you selling your polled bulls at a premium. Good luck tough choice when you get good bulls.

 

[Lucky_P]

hd,
I've done quite a few dehornings with the little green cheerio on Simmental-cross calves at about 4-6 months of age.
It won't qualify as a 'cosmetic'- quality dehorning - and you may end up with some blunt, residual scurs(not the inherited form) if you don't manage to get the elastrator band(I use two) well down to the base of the horn - but it will take 'em off without any blood loss, minimal chance of infection, and no issue with regard to maggot infestation.

 

[hillsdown]

They definately are quite big scurs at that age, I agree with Lucky-P to use a Barnes dehorner. Good looking calf, but he is a touch straight in the hocks.

I think so too Knersie , a little too straight , will have to watch him walk and get a closer look when I work him. That may solve my dilemma right there. ;-)

Either way I will dehorn him when he comes in if they have not worn down yet . :tiphat: