Diamtious earth as a wormer

[MWilliams]

A buddy of mine and I use DE mixed in with Redmond mineral to worm our cattle and it seems to be working very well. I was wondering if anyone else has ever tried it.
?

 

[3waycross]

Not picking a fight but how do you know it's working fine? Are you having fecal samples tested or do they just seem to not be wormy.

 

[Kingfisher]

My buddy tried that with his goats....turned into a trainwreck that was expensive to clean up.

 

[slick4591]

My buddy tried that with his goats....turned into a trainwreck that was expensive to clean up.

Do you mind explaining? Some of the chicken breeders swear by it, but what I've read the scientific community says it doesn't work.

 

[Kingfisher]

My buddy tried that with his goats....turned into a trainwreck that was expensive to clean up.

Do you mind explaining? Some of the chicken breeders swear by it, but what I've read the scientific community says it doesn't work.

He was using D ( however you spell it) earth instead of a proven goat de wormer. Trying to be hippie organic. Ended up with at least one really sick Nannie and a bunch of goats w worms. A healthy vet bill and some vet administered worming advice and all is well today.

 

[MWilliams]

I know my buddy took 50 head and put 25 in one pasture with de in the mineral and no other wormer and wormed the other 25 with regular wormer, that was last spring and the ones that was ingesting the de was slicker and healthier looking than the ones on the other wormer.

If anything it does keep the loose mineral from caking up when it gets wet. Lol

 

[Ouachita]

I guess everybodies mileage varies on this, but my wife and children do very well raising goats. They feed de, and also sprinkle the bedding areas and pens. They will use a high powered wormer on rare occassions, on a case by case basis. I can only recall a couple times in 12 years that they have treated the entire herd at one time. I know geography and climate play big in to this, as well as other management practices, but their system works. They have healthy animals. They don't choose this method for "organic" reasons. They simply use it, and when they need something better they use it. They have done it mostly because they enjoy learning, practicing, and perfecting their operation. They also enjoy teaching others.
To my knowledge, they have never done a fecal sample. After 12 years, a successful technique becomes self evident.

 

[3waycross]

I guess everybodies mileage varies on this, but my wife and children do very well raising goats. They feed de, and also sprinkle the bedding areas and pens. They will use a high powered wormer on rare occassions, on a case by case basis. I can only recall a couple times in 12 years that they have treated the entire herd at one time. I know geography and climate play big in to this, as well as other management practices, but their system works. They have healthy animals. They don't choose this method for "organic" reasons. They simply use it, and when they need something better they use it. They have done it mostly because they enjoy learning, practicing, and perfecting their operation. They also enjoy teaching others.
To my knowledge, they have never done a fecal sample. After 12 years, a successful technique becomes self evident.

Hard to argue with that. What i was trying to discern was whether or not he was quoting Anecdotal or Empirical data!

 

[dun]

The breed of goats also matters. Boers are horrible for being affected by worms, british breeds not so much

 

[Lucky_P]

DE has never killed a worm inside a goat, or any other animal. The whole premise behind using it is bogus. If you were swimming in a pool with a bunch of floating razorblades, would they cut your skin and make you dry out? No, they'd just pass on by - and you're immersed in a fluid medium, so where's the drying come into the act?
It may have some effect on external parasites, but not INTERNAL parasites.
Studies have been done multiple times; virtually no evidence of a positive effect.
One study, where they were feeding a ration containing 5% DE (We're talking 5% of the total ration - talk about dry & dusty!), fecal pellets were dry and friable, and there appears to have been *possibly* diminished larval survival in the feces - due to the dessicating effect of that high level of DE.

Folks who use it with 'good results' are MANAGING properly - good nutrition, BROWSE, proper stocking density, good mineral program, sanitation, etc.. Their animals are not healthy because they're feeding DE - it's because they're doing everything else right.
Have seen some real trainwrecks when (typical) folks who didn't manage properly bought into the snake oil sales' pitch and tried to use DE as a 'natural' dewormer. High death losses due to barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus. They had to learn the hard way - and it was harder on the goats than on them.

Have seen one reported case of an 'outbreak' of urinary stones/urethral blockage in feeder steers that someone incorporated DE into the ration on - they didn't consider the mineral content of the DE and it skewed Ca ratio , and with the added silica, they had steers blocking left and right.

Folks feed DE (at what level?) and report that their animals are healthy, with bright eyes, shiny coats, can run faster and jump higher - but they don't do fecal egg counts, and don't have a control group that's not getting it, so there's no real way of comparing anything. Sure you can SAY it's working, but is it?

Sorry (actually, I'm not), but money folks spend on DE would probably be better spent buying some good mineral mix and some additional protein supplement.

 

[TexasBred]

Sorry (actually, I'm not), but money folks spend on DE would probably be better spent buying some good mineral mix and some additional protein supplement.

Exactly. Works good as an insecticide and is actually approved here by the state to be used as such. All other claims are "off the wall". Pretty much the same for the Redmond Products. A lot of money for nothing. But suckers can always be found for just about anything.

 

[Ouachita]

I do not dispute an educated persons claim that may be contrary to what I think works in my world. I'm a sucker. Yes, it could be that our management practices are 100% of the reason we have so few parasite problems. I expect we could stop the de completely without a change. I'm also a sucker for some other old fashioned remedies. My household has not taken nor had the need for antibiotics for 17 years now. I'm the only one in the house who has a doctor, and thats for a congentital heart problem. We never get sick. Never. I can't argue with modern scientific evidence that something can't work.
I respect those of you who have been better educated and know the facts. I do.

 

[3waycross]

I do not dispute an educated persons claim that may be contrary to what I think works in my world. I'm a sucker. Yes, it could be that our management practices are 100% of the reason we have so few parasite problems. I expect we could stop the de completely without a change. I'm also a sucker for some other old fashioned remedies. My household has not taken nor had the need for antibiotics for 17 years now. I'm the only one in the house who has a doctor, and thats for a congentital heart problem. We never get sick. Never. I can't argue with modern scientific evidence that something can't work.
I respect those of you who have been better educated and know the facts. I do.

and I respect you for not bullin up and arguing with scientific evidence. It takes a big man to have and keep an open mind and you sure got my respect here!

 

[TexasBred]

I do not dispute an educated persons claim that may be contrary to what I think works in my world. I'm a sucker. Yes, it could be that our management practices are 100% of the reason we have so few parasite problems. I expect we could stop the de completely without a change. I'm also a sucker for some other old fashioned remedies. My household has not taken nor had the need for antibiotics for 17 years now. I'm the only one in the house who has a doctor, and thats for a congentital heart problem. We never get sick. Never. I can't argue with modern scientific evidence that something can't work.
I respect those of you who have been better educated and know the facts. I do.

I'm Glad the family has not needed antibiotics. Apparently you haven't had any infections to need any. But go a little easy on the "never get sick". Wouldn't want you to jinx yourself.

 

[Ouachita]

I do not dispute an educated persons claim that may be contrary to what I think works in my world. I'm a sucker. Yes, it could be that our management practices are 100% of the reason we have so few parasite problems. I expect we could stop the de completely without a change. I'm also a sucker for some other old fashioned remedies. My household has not taken nor had the need for antibiotics for 17 years now. I'm the only one in the house who has a doctor, and thats for a congentital heart problem. We never get sick. Never. I can't argue with modern scientific evidence that something can't work.
I respect those of you who have been better educated and know the facts. I do.

I'm Glad the family has not needed antibiotics. Apparently you haven't had any infections to need any. But go a little easy on the "never get sick". Wouldn't want you to jinx yourself.

I don't believe in jinx; that would be contrary to scientific data. I do appreciate the thought.

 

[snake67]

I agree with Lucky on this one.

As we raise cattle AND sheep I can tell you from personal experience that fecals are the only way to be sure what is happening out the south end of a north bound animal. I know you know that but many do not. And, when they worm and there is no need to worm they believe they have solved a problem when there was no problem.

Organic guys try this but from personal experience and use I will say this.

We tossed the bag of D Earth under the table in the shop and returned to SafeGuard, Valbazan and a few others for sheep and the old tried and true pour on's for cattle.

Others can do as they wish but we are no longer interested in things that "may" work, "might" work and "sometimes" work.

When we do the work to prevent and kill parasites we want it to work "now" and we want it to work "fast" and we want it to last.

If anyone wants to come for a visit there is a free bag under the table in the shop to take home.

Cheers and best to all

Bez

 

[Lucky_P]

Ouachita,
I'm a proponent of a number of 'alternative' treatment modalities - acupuncture, lasers, some herbal medicines all have applications as adjuncts - and occasionally, as a replacement for - conventional treatments.
DE is not one.

Again, from your description of your family's flock, they're almost certainly benefiting from 'the watchful eye of the master(or mistress)', and not from DE.
That said, it's unlikely to cause any harm, except to your pocketbook as an unnecessary and useless purchase.

 

[Ouachita]

I agree with Lucky on this one.

As we raise cattle AND sheep I can tell you from personal experience that fecals are the only way to be sure what is happening out the south end of a north bound animal. I know you know that but many do not. And, when they worm and there is no need to worm they believe they have solved a problem when there was no problem.

Organic guys try this but from personal experience and use I will say this.

We tossed the bag of D Earth under the table in the shop and returned to SafeGuard, Valbazan and a few others for sheep and the old tried and true pour on's for cattle.

Others can do as they wish but we are no longer interested in things that "may" work, "might" work and "sometimes" work.

When we do the work to prevent and kill parasites we want it to work "now" and we want it to work "fast" and we want it to last.

If anyone wants to come for a visit there is a free bag under the table in the shop to take home.

Cheers and best to all

Bez

If your are replying to me please re-read my first post on this topic. I'm not a greenie or organic type person. I do agree we may be giving our goats something that we may not need to be giving them. I'm only offering up our experience. We rarely use any commercial parasite control. You may be correct in that we may be trying to manage a problem that doesn't exist. I don't know. I am a simple man with very stubborn and rigid, but still simple ways. I cannot and will not depart from success. Thank you for your words, wisdom, and advice.

 

[Ouachita]

Ouachita,
I'm a proponent of a number of 'alternative' treatment modalities - acupuncture, lasers, some herbal medicines all have applications as adjuncts - and occasionally, as a replacement for - conventional treatments.
DE is not one.

Again, from your description of your family's flock, they're almost certainly benefiting from 'the watchful eye of the master(or mistress)', and not from DE.
That said, it's unlikely to cause any harm, except to your pocketbook as an unnecessary and useless purchase.

Yes she is the "master"; of the goat herd :nod: Lucky, I will definitely consider your information and offer it up to my master and the kiddos. I'm almost certain they will, as with other reputable sources, consider eliminating de from the program. They will do this as an experiment, as they do many other management techniques. Thank you for your unbiased delivery of information.

 

[greybeard]

You gotta mix it with apple cider vinegar and swing that dead cat around your head 3 times for it to really work on goat and cattle herds that don't have an internal parasite problem. The dead cat is the really important part.