Daddy Issues

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Branded; you should ease up a bit. I saw you post the same thing on another thread with someone buying a herd bull that was ran commercial. A lot of commercial folks don't care who the sire is, we might as seed stock guys, but they really don't. As a seed stock provider it's my job to not use carriers as sires, if I do that I don't really need to test them. My buyers might care who the sire is, a little bit about the dam and no concern about dna. They just want to know if I provide a consistent product. Now if I was something bigger than Joe Dummy, like Sitz, yeah the buyers might give two poops about some of this stuff. A few weeks ago I asked you what your end game was, you had no real answer. I'm a business man in my real profession, I absolutely need to know who my client is, what they want and what is just noise. What works for you doesn't work for everyone, your market is different than mine, Rons, Tonya's, Ebenezer and Jeanne. For the record I dna, not so much for the client but in the hopes the epd's one day will have some kind of standard.
 
How many commercial operations know what they may be getting when it comes to recessives when they buy cows? They are half of the equation. Even if a bull tests clean, cows in the herd could still be carriers.

How many seed-stock operations, when carrier animals are detected will pull the tags and send them to sale. If they are young cows they want as much money out of them as they can get. Many go to other farms and are unsuspecting that they just purchased carriers!

Recessives are something that breeders of all animals (beef or dairy) have to deal with. Knowledge is power!
 
Unless you are using a breed that doesn't have any known recessive defects - other than % ones that got it from the other breed. But, any animal that someone might want to register, crossed with other breeds with known defects, must be tested prior to registering. If a carrier, and they still want it registered, it is marked on their registration papers as a carrier.
Personally, I wish they did not allow ANY cattle registered if they are a carrier. But, the info is on line. Just look up registration number, and it is listed.
 
************* said:
NEFarmwife said:
CreekAngus said:
You just nailed it. Currently the dna test can only tell you who it ain't related to, sort of. When we send in samples we have to tell the parentage and when they run the test they look for markers that reflect the supposed parentage. If it's a miss and the Daddy isn't the sire, they can't tell you through the dna who the sire really is. You have to give them your next best option who they then look for markers, again. Hypothetically you could use a Payweight son and get it registered to Payweight, because there are enough markers.
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I'm going to, based off of the convo I had with the operation and Angus Association... disagree.

To my understanding, when called on about possible problem with the sample used is "it was two markers off of being a match"... which told me that it could still be a son of same sire. But what they were conveying is, the sample on file was deteriorated and could have potentially been the reason it was off.

New sample was mailed Saturday.

I want to be clear since Branded is making my small molehill into a mountain... this bull was purchased in 2015 to cover commercial cows. It was purchased because it was a heifer bull by genetics. It was purchased because of the reputation of said breeder.

Having said that, once we started needing coverage on our purebreds... we chose him to clean them up because we loved his calves for the last few years. We did not make a bad decision there. We're happy with those results.

The only thing I'm frustrated over, is the genomics came back with a 46 milk. Way higher than I like.

Parentage doesn't mean a whole lot on commercials as long as you aren't getting 100lbs + on heifers that can't calve them. We got lucky.

Parentage means everything now that we run PB. All but two bulls and our calves for this year have been genomic/parent verified. We do not purchase anything without that now. Those other bulls will never see a PB.
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"Parentage doesn't mean a whole lot on commercials"

It could if that parent is a carrier. Then you just screwed your client. BIG TIME! What if your client is retaining females, building up his females?

For all your sage wisdom about the cattle biz, you sure sound like "amateur hour"

I've tested plenty of cattle and only had parentage come back wrong once, and that was on a calf out of a cow I purchased, and that I did not breed, AND that breeder was sure of the bull, but it ended up being his other bull. All was straightend out ASAP.

I would be far more concerned about birth defects than 100+ pound calves. My heifers can handle 100 pounders, but birth defects can't be fixed.

The devil is in the details, what might seem small and insignificant to you might be a big problem for others.
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Terminal cattle are terminal. Many operations don't even AI cattle like we do. I bought a bull from a trusted, reputable operation. Whether it be this bull or another, I assure you that we still have a good bull free of defects. Stop trying to pick fights with me.

But listen, when you start running more than 50 head... you can tell ME how to run my business.

Your dad may have raised cattle as a HOBBY for 50 years but we raise them for a living. We have over 500 now roaming our pastures with calves at side. The others were shipped out. We run two calving windows, not rear round. And we certainly ain't holding over half our herd to breed to one sire. So please don't go giving ME advice. Go fix your problems.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
Unless you are using a breed that doesn't have any known recessive defects - other than % ones that got it from the other breed. But, any animal that someone might want to register, crossed with other breeds with known defects, must be tested prior to registering. If a carrier, and they still want it registered, it is marked on their registration papers as a carrier.
Personally, I wish they did not allow ANY cattle registered if they are a carrier. But, the info is on line. Just look up registration number, and it is listed.
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Same with the Angus Association. They'll be marked as a potential carrier if not tested free of a defect. This one in question (although defects aren't the real topic here) was tested for a defect and clear of it because by pedigree, he was a potential carrier of one. That is why a sample was on file.

I opted, since using him on our purebreds to have him genomic tested for a more accurate picture of his EPDs.

As a result, the sample they had on file did not match the sire listed. We're trying to resolve this now but any of their sire lineup is going to be clear of defects. That is not a concern of mine.

It humors me, that one suggests we'd have a problem otherwise. I sell commercial bulls for a nice average. Far better than said Bh had his PB herd of 7 for listed last year. No one asked for genetic testing but we still did it. No one asked about genetics defects either. Sold them to commercial cattlemen.
 
NEFarmwife said:
No one asked for genetic testing but we still did it. No one asked about genetics defects either. Sold them to commercial cattlemen.
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NEF -- you are pointing out something on CT that seems to pop up frequently and that is a dramatic difference in goals between a seedstock breeder and a commercial operation.

I would totally agree on your statement that many commercial operations aren't concerned with defects, dna testing, and epds. Seedstock breeders definitely should be focusing on those things for their operations (imo).

But many commercial operations simply want a bred female first, a live calf second, a weaned decent calf third, and repeat that fourth.

Also -- this daddy issue thread is great and I'm interested on how it plays out for you. My little operation only uses AI and we had a calf born this year that didn't match our records for birthing schedule. So is it sire A or sire B? Three weeks early or or three weeks late? Doesn't matter for our operation more than curiosity, but for a larger operation I could easily see something happen.
 
In the end game, we as commercial folks are selling pounds first and quality second. The VAST majority of us do not carry or retain any ownership through the feedlot and even fewer through slaughter to sell on a value grid. This chase to prime and quality is being driven more by Tyson, IBP and other big folks than anyone else in my humble opinion. Obviously we all want our product to taste well but I know more cattlemen that care more about the pounds than the grade.

If you don't have cows that get pregnant readily, carry the calf to term, have it, raise it well and get rebred in a realatively tight window, you will go out of business. That has a huge assumption which is this is a business and run like a business and not a lifestyle and run like a lifestyle/hobby.

Not new information, I know. I SUPER appreciate my bull providers spending the relatively tiny amount (compared to the cost of the bull) on as much information as they can give me on his genetic proclivities. Dealing with us in honest terms and probity is key or we will go elsewhere. It frankly is beyond me that anyone that sells bulls for more than $1500 per thinks this cost is too much/too high to do it as a business. Over time, I would submit, it will be required by us, the commercial buyer, or we won't buy your bulls. Sire confirmation. Full genetic profiles. Give us the data.

You have to believe that this trend towards getting more information, to be more efficient and more goal oriented is going to reverse in this country to believe you can maintain your business as a bull/seed provider and not do that. That is not a trend i see changing but i'm sure some folks will bet against it. There are political reasons and arguments right now about EPD's, the changes in them and which herds the changes benefit and which herds they don't. There is some bias and skew but for the most part, you are going to have to give more information, not less, to stay relevant.
 
Totally agree on registered cattle having parentage and genomics. Also tested against any KNOWN defects in pedigree.

We don't buy any stock any longer, without it. I made one exception this year and she was tested as soon as she was brought home. In our PB herd, we have only two bulls that haven't been tested and they'll never see a PB cow.

We'll be genetically testing all our calves when we wean here the first part of August. Even our replacement girls, things we don't intend to sell.

In other news... I was contacted by a stud/semen company the other day and asked for permission to use a video of my calf in their sire promotion. I must be doing something well? I didn't even have to BOMBARD CT board and promote her.
 
Based on your comment, I can now give you advice. We have more than 50, you keeping referring to an old article about us from Angus.org

Quality over quantity .

I will have my America progeny weaned before you even get your first semen shipment of him. Face it, I'm ahead of you in the genetics race, you can't keep up. I have resources to run circles around what you can produce from a genetic standpoint. Nobody in the Angus game is interested in the fact that you have 500 head, they are interested solely in genetic code. The best females are the absolute name of the game.

In 2020 we will begin cloning our very best females, can you keep up with that level of uniformity in your herd?

You are working hard, but not smart. Or maybe you just don't have what it takes to keep up.
 
************* said:
Based on your comment, I can now give you advice. We have more than 50, you keeping referring to an old article about us from Angus.org

Quality over quantity .

I will have my America progeny weaned before you even get your first semen shipment of him. Face it, I'm ahead of you in the genetics race, you can't keep up. I have resources to run circles around what you can produce from a genetic standpoint. Nobody in the Angus game is interested in the fact that you have 500 head, they are interested solely in genetic code. The best females are the absolute name of the game.

In 2020 we will begin cloning our very best females, can you keep up with that level of uniformity in your herd?

You are working hard, but not smart. Or maybe you just don't have what it takes to keep up.
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I'll reiterate again, I am not interested in SAV America semen, nor do I plan to breed to him. Please call Charles or Mandy to confirm, we are NOT on a list. I've not begged for it. I've not shown an ounce of interest.

There is nothing genetically superior about SAV America. I am not stating he's junk. I am stating we did not intend nor plan to breed to him.

Enjoy your progeny, they're only worth what your reputation can sell... good luck with that one!
 
Branded your just another person chasing numbers and riding someone elses coat tails at this point. Always remember don't put all your eggs in one basket.
 
Allenw said:
Branded your just another person chasing numbers and riding someone elses coat tails at this point. Always remember don't put all your eggs in one basket.
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Don't use his name in your post, all you do is give him more free advertising.
 
Allenw said:
Branded your just another person chasing numbers and riding someone elses coat tails at this point. Always remember don't put all your eggs in one basket.
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We are given tools (semen straws, DNA, etc), and they are actually quite inexpensive overall. Anyone can do what we are doing, it's just a question of how badly you want it, and some want it more than others, and it's completely fine if you don't want it more than others.

I guess I have to break it down like this. If you are building a hot rod, and you put on accessories, are you riding others coattails? Does a Holly carburetor or nitrous make you a follower, not a leader? They are merely tools you are using to achieve your ends. At the end of the day, SAV is not down here rounding up cattle and breeding them for us, they are telling us what we should be breeding to what, that is what we are doing. I just put a lot of Hoover Dam in the tank this week, am I riding the coattails of Hoover Angus, or using Hoover Dam as a tool.

I will profess, I cannot go to the stockyards, pinhook a bull, and have his progeny go straight into the Select Sires lineup. Nor do I think anyone else can on this board.
 

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