CURLY CALF SYNDROME in AAA

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Have any of you read AAA's new rules concerning the registration of animals??? They will not be pulling reg papers on cattle already registered. All calves born up til 12-31-09 can be registered - but a test will be required and they have to have the results (neg or pos). After 1-1-10, only negative tested cattle will be able to be registered.
So, looks like they are handling it very well. The problem that I see is the breeder that gets a pos tested bull & doesn't register him - just sells him to a commercial breeder.
The Amer Simmental Assn immediately sent out email info alerting us about the problem. They will require testing on future registrations. I fugure they will handle it just like the TI & PHA. They require all cattle with 1/8 blood Maine, Chi or Shorthorn must be DNA tested - unless the parent/s already has DNA negative test.
Besides this, ASA DNA tests the top 50 bulls in the breed each year for every defect known to them.
Also, if you have a deformed calf, ASA will pay to get it tested.

 

[Conagher]

I am in the commercial cow business and I run 3 future direction bulls 2 midland bulls and 2 predestine bulls all but 1 has 1680 in their pedigree I had 2 calves out of 150 that could of been ccs don't know yet but I have several 1000$$$ tied up in herd bulls am hoping that I don't have a major wreck because I buy hfrs from the same people I buy bulls from and they buy back calves from their customers like me so is possible down the road I could have major problems but the AAA says so far that out of the 10 s of 1000 s calves out of 1680 the report of only 45 calves is less than 1/100th of a percent of the calves out their that are fine

We really aren't going to get a handle on this until they get that test and we start getting test results back. I am still a little perplexed how this could have gone unnoticed for so long in such a popular bloodline. Though if you do the math, a herd that had 100 cows and ran four bulls two of them being Precision sons and only half of those being carriers and this was the lineup for years is going to very rarely ever actually see an affected calf. If you got a hundred cows calving, my suspicion (before this brought attention to it) is that if you had one or two of these calves you probably assume they are stillborns and don't look hard enough at them to realize that something really weird was happening. You MIGHT ask a vet to take samples for fear of lepto or BVD II and then either alter the vaccination program or spray for some sort of noxious week; but I don't KNOW that many would have leaped to the conclusion that there was a genetics problem.

They have been rumors running around about Future Direction for a couple of years now- involving a genetic problem- but since nothing was released most of those I talked to assumed dwarfism (because of the work that was going on concerning the dwarf test)... I hope its not found that someone sat on this one for awhile

Reported one to the AAA that they speculated was CCS. No blood test yet to confirm anything. Dam was a CA Future Direction daughter and A.I. sire was GAR Solution. You can draw your own conclusions.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Reported one to the AAA that they speculated was CCS. No blood test yet to confirm anything. Dam was a CA Future Direction daughter and A.I. sire was GAR Solution. You can draw your own conclusions.

Select Sires has already been confirming that GAR Solution is a confirmed carrier. They are waiting for the DNA test to confirm but are fully disclosing that he is a carrier. They have made clear that all sires will be DNA tested and if carriers will be pulled from there lineup as well as all future bulls will be tested before being presented to the public.
My question is what to do with the semen in my tank from Solution. Will they give credit for it or are you out of luck. I know I won't use it on my Angus cattle, maybe with the DNA test but even then you can't keep any offspring so that makes it kind of pointless and hard to sell if from a carrier.
Double R

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

If you have a carrier cow or bull - you can still use them (bred to a non-carrier), but offspring will have to be tested. If clean, good to go, if not - feedlot calves.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Double R Ranch-

The answer to your question - ["My question is what to do with the semen in my tank from Solution."] - is to consider the semen in your tank in the same manner as you would consider a bull which tested positive for a lethal gene - DON'T BREED HIM TO FEMALES WITH THE SAME GENETIC PROBLEM IN HER PEDIGREE!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Frankie]

Reported one to the AAA that they speculated was CCS. No blood test yet to confirm anything. Dam was a CA Future Direction daughter and A.I. sire was GAR Solution. You can draw your own conclusions.

Select Sires has already been confirming that GAR Solution is a confirmed carrier. They are waiting for the DNA test to confirm but are fully disclosing that he is a carrier. They have made clear that all sires will be DNA tested and if carriers will be pulled from there lineup as well as all future bulls will be tested before being presented to the public.
My question is what to do with the semen in my tank from Solution. Will they give credit for it or are you out of luck. I know I won't use it on my Angus cattle, maybe with the DNA test but even then you can't keep any offspring so that makes it kind of pointless and hard to sell if from a carrier.
Double R

Ask them for credit or to exchange the semen for something else. All they can do is say "no." I think most of these guys are going to do the right thing by their customers.....as soon as we figure out what the right thing is.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Boy I hope your right. Just before this broke out I bought a ton more straws for fall breeding. He is also a relative of this genetics.
Will be very interesting to see how this gets handled.
Double R

 

[SusanT]

My father used to sell quite a bit of semen on some of his bulls. Before he would sell any semen, dad would mate the bull to 25 of the bulls daughters looking for genetic defects. Never found any but it eliminated the possibility and gave him faith that he wasn't going to be having problems down the road. It seems like that might be a useful thing to do with the more popular bulls.

 

[Betty]

Yesterday I spoke to someone "well connected" with AAA who told me off the record that genetic tests are already being done and that it looks like CA Fu. Direction and 2V1 were carriers. They are developing the test now, it will be a DNA test and probably cost in the $75 range. He also told me that at the Champion Hill Sale cattle sired by Bismark
(has GAR 1680 influence) were still bringing huge money.
This is just rumor at this point, so please don't take this as fact.
Betty

 

[Conagher]

So who is liable for this defective product – the manufacture or the distributor? To what extend should they be liable: replacement, cost of testing, ???

 

[Frankie]

My father used to sell quite a bit of semen on some of his bulls. Before he would sell any semen, dad would mate the bull to 25 of the bulls daughters looking for genetic defects. Never found any but it eliminated the possibility and gave him faith that he wasn't going to be having problems down the road. It seems like that might be a useful thing to do with the more popular bulls.

The DNA tests weren't available back then. When the test is ready, we can start testing a calf before his mom has him licked dry. We know 1680 was a carrier, but did it start with him? Considering the heavyweights in his pedigree and their wide influence in the breed, we'll just use bulls tested clean of CCS in our breeding program.

 

[Brandonm22]

I am sure that some people are already "lawyering up"; but I don't see how anybody (at this point) is liable for anything. Lethal recessives are a part of cattle breeding. The buyer and the seller both know that risk before any semen or bulls or heifers are bought and sold. This was not due to negligence by Gardiners or the AAA, it just happened. God is the "manufacturer" and if you have a problem with Him you will get your day to confront Him with all of your complaints (I don't recommend being too confrontational). There was a gene mutation at the point of conception of Precision 1680 or of one of his ancestors and it got passed down the line along with all his good traits that breeders went gaga for. $75 is going to be a steep price. IF that is the price, I think it pays to swallow the one time cost to get the registered cow herd tested; but I don't know that I would be registering many calves out of confirmed carriers if that is the price.

 

[Conagher]

I am sure that some people are already "lawyering up"; but I don't see how anybody (at this point) is liable for anything. Lethal recessives are a part of cattle breeding. The buyer and the seller both know that risk before any semen or bulls or heifers are bought and sold. This was not due to negligence by Gardiners or the AAA, it just happened. God is the "manufacturer" and if you have a problem with Him you will get your day to confront Him with all of your complaints (I don't recommend being too confrontational). There was a gene mutation at the point of conception of Precision 1680 or of one of his ancestors and it got passed down the line along with all his good traits that breeders went gaga for. $75 is going to be a steep price. IF that is the price, I think it pays to swallow the one time cost to get the registered cow herd tested; but I don't know that I would be registering many calves out of confirmed carriers if that is the price.

Interesting. So using the same logic, is it far to assume you believe that fatality accidents due to random defects are a part of automobile ownership, and both the buyer and seller know this risk before any purchase takes place? And since random defects are naturally occurring in the universe, for which God created, then He is in fact the "manufacturer". Thus, instead of returning a defective automobile to the dealer, you address it directly with God?

 

[Brandonm22]

If you get killed in your car because the engineer designed it in such a way that in a 30 mph crash the tranie comes up through the floor boards cutting you in half and that could have been prevented through crash testing I do think that your estate has a valid issue to litigate. If however you are killed in your car by impact with a 5000 lb meteor, I don't see how the manufacturer of the car is liable. It is entirely possible that a meteorite is falling on your exact position at this or any other moment. I can't predict it and I can't prevent it. With a genetic defect, a gene that once did something else randomly mutates into a gene that can cause problems. If it is recessive gene, the phenotypic traits that it shows when expressed are masked by its normal gene compadre. We have no way of knowing when this occurs. We have no way of identifying the presence of a lethal recessive other than breeding the cattle and letting the chips fall where they may. Again I can't predict when a genetic mutation will occur and I can't do anything to prevent it from occurring and (unlike the metereorite impact) I can't even SEE that is HAS occurred. A calf carrying an unidentified lethal genetic recessive looks just like every other calf. Even IF you spent a chunk of money to do a complete DNA analysis which was not even possible waaaay back in the dark ages of 1991 when Precison was born, I doubt they could find a new lethal recessive in the genome. There is no telling what the 12 dummies
brought in off the street might rule on ANYTHING; but anybody who understands genetics and cattle breeding would laugh you out of the court room for filing such a frivolous motion. I would also argue that a Curly Calf carrier cow is worth just as much money as a noncarrier when they are sold as killed cows. Likewise when bred to a noncarrier bull the resulting progeny are worth just as much (carrier or noncarrier) when they are finished. I would tend to think that your suit is frivolous and has an unreasonable expectation of producer liability AND that even if I accepted the absurd premise that the breeder could be held liable then the only liability would be for the dead calves. NOW, it is entirely possible that some producer or semen seller out there gives a too broad and too all encompassing guarantee of cattle/semen that he/she sells so there MIGHT be individual breeders who have given promises like their cattle "are free from any defect" and you might be able to get something from them through that guarantee. I highly suspect that those instances are few and far between.

 

[Conagher]

If you get killed in your car because the engineer designed it in such a way that in a 30 mph crash the tranie comes up through the floor boards cutting you in half and that could have been prevented through crash testing I do think that your estate has a valid issue to litigate. If however you are killed in your car by impact with a 5000 lb meteor, I don't see how the manufacturer of the car is liable. It is entirely possible that a meteorite is falling on your exact position at this or any other moment. I can't predict it and I can't prevent it. With a genetic defect, a gene that once did something else randomly mutates into a gene that can cause problems. If it is recessive gene, the phenotypic traits that it shows when expressed are masked by its normal gene compadre. We have no way of knowing when this occurs. We have no way of identifying the presence of a lethal recessive other than breeding the cattle and letting the chips fall where they may. Again I can't predict when a genetic mutation will occur and I can't do anything to prevent it from occurring and (unlike the metereorite impact) I can't even SEE that is HAS occurred. A calf carrying an unidentified lethal genetic recessive looks just like every other calf. Even IF you spent a chunk of money to do a complete DNA analysis which was not even possible waaaay back in the dark ages of 1991 when Precison was born, I doubt they could find a new lethal recessive in the genome. There is no telling what the 12 dummies
brought in off the street might rule on ANYTHING; but anybody who understands genetics and cattle breeding would laugh you out of the court room for filing such a frivolous motion. I would also argue that a Curly Calf carrier cow is worth just as much money as a noncarrier when they are sold as killed cows. Likewise when bred to a noncarrier bull the resulting progeny are worth just as much (carrier or noncarrier) when they are finished. I would tend to think that your suit is frivolous and has an unreasonable expectation of producer liability AND that even if I accepted the absurd premise that the breeder could be held liable then the only liability would be for the dead calves. NOW, it is entirely possible that some producer or semen seller out there gives a too broad and too all encompassing guarantee of cattle/semen that he/she sells so there MIGHT be individual breeders who have given promises like their cattle "are free from any defect" and you might be able to get something from them through that guarantee. I highly suspect that those instances are few and far between.

Thanks for the response B22; however the car analogy appeared incomprehensible so let's bring it closer to home. I'm just trying to interpret your response correctly. Are you saying if you paid say $4K for a heifer of a very popular bloodline, anticipating a return through embryos sales or whatever; and she was genetically flawed such that 50% of her offspring was unmarketable as intended; you would or would not return her? And if yes, would you expect to receive credit for the full $4K purchase price; or only equivalent to current slaughter price? (assuming of course you are not hit with a meteorite on the return trip)

 

[Brandonm22]

If I sold you 1000 shares of Lehman Brother's stock a year ago for $60,420 with you anticipating a lifetime of dividend income, stock splits, and 8% yearly growth and today that $60,420 investment is worth (literally) $70 (and you had better sell now to get THAT), I don't see how you can come and sue me. I did not know that this was going to happen. I did not make it happen. It was all out of my control. That is MARKET RISK. Stocks do fall. 156 year old companies DO go bankrupt. IF I sell you a heifer, she COULD get struck by lightning, her EPDs could drop, everybody could switch to Herefords, the govt could outlaw cattle slaughter, and a bizarre lethal recessive could be found in her. That is MARKET RISK. I remember when people were spending $15,000 on frame 10, flat ribbed, pencil gutted, white faced, yellow striped, Simmental donors. That was not THAT long ago. That cow very easily could have daughters that are still in production. Unless her daughter is black, polled, deep ribbed, and frame 6 (or less) she probably isn't worth more than $1200. There ARE risks in this business. We accept that risk when we operate in this business.

 

[tom4018]

AAA has an update on their site' Looks like it is going to take a while to figure this out.

 

[Frankie]

AAA has an update on their site' Looks like it is going to take a while to figure this out.

Yes, this is not good. It's starting to look like it might not be a single recessive trait that requires both parents to carry the gene.

http://www.angus.org/notice_102408.pdf

 

[Brandonm22]

Yes, Frankie this is really really bad. IF this is NOT a recessive, then managing the carriers becomes really really difficult. Your gut reaction would be to throw in the towell and cull everything that test positive. But what is perplexing about that is IF this thing pops up in heterozygous cattle is how in the heck did we get 5000+ daughters before discovering it????? We got thousands of head of cattle probably with this gene that have spent their entire lives producing calves without this rearing it's head and now they say that it might not be a recessive. Something has to mask this thing in 95%++ of matings where the gene is present. If it is NOT a dominant gene is it something in the environment that is causing this condition to express itself. Something just does not compute here. At this moment I wouldn't buy anything with Precision in the pedigree and I certainly wouldn't be culling based on this.

 

[HerefordSire]

If I sold you 1000 shares of Lehman Brother's stock a year ago for $60,420 with you anticipating a lifetime of dividend income, stock splits, and 8% yearly growth and today that $60,420 investment is worth (literally) $70 (and you had better sell now to get THAT), I don't see how you can come and sue me. I did not know that this was going to happen. I did not make it happen. It was all out of my control. That is MARKET RISK. Stocks do fall. 156 year old companies DO go bankrupt. IF I sell you a heifer, she COULD get struck by lightning, her EPDs could drop, everybody could switch to Herefords, the govt could outlaw cattle slaughter, and a bizarre lethal recessive could be found in her. That is MARKET RISK. I remember when people were spending $15,000 on frame 10, flat ribbed, pencil gutted, white faced, yellow striped, Simmental donors. That was not THAT long ago. That cow very easily could have daughters that are still in production. Unless her daughter is black, polled, deep ribbed, and frame 6 (or less) she probably isn't worth more than $1200. There ARE risks in this business. We accept that risk when we operate in this business.

Looks like Herefords could finally take over Angus after all as the dominant breed, again. It is peculiar how things work sometime...you know...an event that changes the course of momentum at the least expecting time. I believe this is the start of the Angus exit. Just in time before McDonalds started to advertise Angus burgers. Good thing they postponed their decision. I would have never ate there again.