Critique this bull

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millstreaminn

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Just shy of 3 years old in this pic. New Design 878 son I raised out of one of my commercial cows. I used him for breeding 2 years ago and have kept daughters out of him. He's gone now but I'm looking for honest criticism of him. If you think he is nice, great! If you think he is hamburger, please say so. If you think he should have been nutted and all his daughters should be destroyed, well that's a bit harsh! :lol2: I'm just trying to learn what to look for if I choose to raise any more bulls for myself. Fire away, you won't hurt my feelings, I'm just looking to learn. :tiphat:









 
I'm no bull expert; plenty of other guys whose opinion you should value more than mine. From what I see, he's not garbage but I really dislike the set of his feet and legs. There's no great shot of them but the rear legs look pretty posty. A little soft behind the shoulders but decent depth of rib. How are the calves that he's throwing?
 
artesianspringsfarm":3enidvc7 said:
I'm no bull expert; plenty of other guys whose opinion you should value more than mine. From what I see, he's not garbage but I really dislike the set of his feet and legs. There's no great shot of them but the rear legs look pretty posty. A little soft behind the shoulders but decent depth of rib. How are the calves that he's throwing?

Grandson








 
I agree hes a decent bull, but definitely posty, he looks a little unbalanced from pics, but would have to see him walking to really get a sense ...
 
RBB, what would you say about his legs then? Is that correct set in your book? I'm not at all being snarky, I'm asking seriously. I would like to see more set than that, both for peace of mind about how the bull will age, and thinking about his daughters (I'm very maternally focused right now on what I would like from a bull). Also, it seems like there is too much angle in the front heels.
 
He looks "narrow based" and "cow hocked" to me also, in these pics. I prefer to see them in person to judge, pictures can be very deceiving!
Sure like the bodies on the grand calves though!
 
In doing an analysis of the phenotype of any animal, many factors must be taken into consideration - not the least of which is the ground upon which they are standing. Is this bull standing on level ground? No. Is the ground free from rocks and clumps of hard soil? No. Is he standing on his legs evenly because his weight is distributed evenly? No. This does not mean that he is not posty, or that he is not cow-hocked, or that he is not "soft" (whatever that means) behind the shoulders. But body position of an animal when one is observing a "picture" is of extreme importance, as are the images, or scenery, in the background. Most photographers do not see what the picture will ultimately 'show' as they take the picture. Take a close look at the pictures of this bull and observe what he is standing on, what is behind him that influences your sight, and whether he is standing facing uphill, or downhill.

Those things being said, I do not think that he is excessively post legged, if at all. He is NOT cow-hocked. He may be sickle-hocked to a degree, but it is important that one knows the difference between an animal being cow-hocked, and being sickle-hocked. Looking at the view taken directly from the rear proves that he is NOT cow hocked, for if he were, his hocks would be close to each other, and his feet would be angling outward from the 'midline'. If he were sickle-hocked, his lower legs from the hocks down would angle forward under his belly. A perpendicular line 'dropped' from his pin bones would appear in FRONT of his cannon bones and pasterns and hooves. The rear view picture is a fine example of straight legs, NOT cow-hocked, but also NOT a wide enough stance, therefore demonstrating a lack of thickness (from side-to-side) of his general hind-quarter development and phenotype.

As a general commentary on this bull, I would say that he was a reasonable beginning for a small number of cows to "breed up" your genetics, but the black grandson seems to be amore desirable potential sire than the "old man".

DOC HARRIS
 
As a general commentary on this bull, I would say that he was a reasonable beginning for a small number of cows to "breed up" your genetics, but the black grandson seems to be amore desirable potential sire than the "old man".

That is all anybody can hope for so good job Mill.
 
DOC HARRIS":2ips7sap said:
In doing an analysis of the phenotype of any animal, many factors must be taken into consideration - not the least of which is the ground upon which they are standing. Is this bull standing on level ground? No. Is the ground free from rocks and clumps of hard soil? No. Is he standing on his legs evenly because his weight is distributed evenly? No. This does not mean that he is not posty, or that he is not cow-hocked, or that he is not "soft" (whatever that means) behind the shoulders. But body position of an animal when one is observing a "picture" is of extreme importance, as are the images, or scenery, in the background. Most photographers do not see what the picture will ultimately 'show' as they take the picture. Take a close look at the pictures of this bull and observe what he is standing on, what is behind him that influences your sight, and whether he is standing facing uphill, or downhill.

Those things being said, I do not think that he is excessively post legged, if at all. He is NOT cow-hocked. He may be sickle-hocked to a degree, but it is important that one knows the difference between an animal being cow-hocked, and being sickle-hocked. Looking at the view taken directly from the rear proves that he is NOT cow hocked, for if he were, his hocks would be close to each other, and his feet would be angling outward from the 'midline'. If he were sickle-hocked, his lower legs from the hocks down would angle forward under his belly. A perpendicular line 'dropped' from his pin bones would appear in FRONT of his cannon bones and pasterns and hooves. The rear view picture is a fine example of straight legs, NOT cow-hocked, but also NOT a wide enough stance, therefore demonstrating a lack of thickness (from side-to-side) of his general hind-quarter development and phenotype.

As a general commentary on this bull, I would say that he was a reasonable beginning for a small number of cows to "breed up" your genetics, but the black grandson seems to be amore desirable potential sire than the "old man".

DOC HARRIS

Good anaylsis Doc. Educational and informative. and yes I agree he is NOT posty........and yes the grandson seems to be a much better bull.
 
Speaking of his "thickness" look at the bull on page 30 of Idaman post in the breeds board. You can really see the difference!
 
You asked so here goes...Unless u are going to have a closed herd, why would you want to have a crossbred bull anyway? You could have bought a better bull for about what it cost to raise this one by himself. Me personally I want to choose a bull out of many bulls to know that that breeders program is on the right track... A crossedbred bull may be great, but you have to wonder is this bull that good .Or is some of it the hybrid vigor , that will be diluted in his offspring.
 

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