Does anyone run donkeys with their cattle. Would a jennie or a jack be better. Coyotes killed a calf this morning. They have never bothered our calves before. Dang buzzards killed one Sunday morning. They started a war they are going to lose.
Coyotes
- Thread starter ctburt0n
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Ky hills
Well-known member
I have a mammoth Jenny with cows currently and we haven't had coyote issues for a while, but have had buzzards kill a calf.
I would recommend Jennys instead of a jack most people say just 1 but I have had several in the past and even a jack with them for while, but it's probably much more of an individual thing with jacks.
I would recommend Jennys instead of a jack most people say just 1 but I have had several in the past and even a jack with them for while, but it's probably much more of an individual thing with jacks.
Farm Family
Well-known member
I run a Livestock Guardian Dog. She protects from land and sky. Amazing work skills! Bonded well to herd and haven't looked back but this is a project that requires time, breeding, instinct and support training. Though she has learned remarkably well…approaching her 3rd calving season. Her 1st season she was only 4-6 months old.
farmerjan
Well-known member
We have run both... the jenny's paired up and took real good care of the sheep.... and they did not neglect them like some say they will. The jacks, intact males, are more iffy with the female sheep and saw a couple sniffing out the heifer calves in one place.... the geldings were just good all around... have had them in with the cattle also and no issues with them.
We also ran some llamas with the sheep and the females were like watching a pair of herding sheep dog when some stray dogs went into the field... one took the ewes and lambs up the hill and the other stayed between the stray dogs and the flock... keeping them away from following... chased and kicked and tried biting with their mouths...
The gelding llamas we kept with the cattle and never had anything bothering them during that time either... They need shearing so more of a pain... I would go with jenny's or gelded males.
We also ran some llamas with the sheep and the females were like watching a pair of herding sheep dog when some stray dogs went into the field... one took the ewes and lambs up the hill and the other stayed between the stray dogs and the flock... keeping them away from following... chased and kicked and tried biting with their mouths...
The gelding llamas we kept with the cattle and never had anything bothering them during that time either... They need shearing so more of a pain... I would go with jenny's or gelded males.
farmerjan
Well-known member
LGD's are good in some places.... but if you are in an area where there are many people then good woven wire cattle fences are essential... and a good liability policy WITH A RIDER for the dog... in case someone goes where they don't belong and gets bit....and you have to accept the barking that goes along with the warning of predators and such...
We could not stop the neighbors from hand feeding one we had and enticing it "out of the field" because they were stupid people that thought the dog was being mistreated and neglected by leaving it out with the sheep. It just didn't work for us... too many know nothing, interferring people here.
They have their place and do a fantastic job in the right setting... but the donkeys just were less maintenance and didn't need the tight fences to keep them in like the dog...
We could not stop the neighbors from hand feeding one we had and enticing it "out of the field" because they were stupid people that thought the dog was being mistreated and neglected by leaving it out with the sheep. It just didn't work for us... too many know nothing, interferring people here.
They have their place and do a fantastic job in the right setting... but the donkeys just were less maintenance and didn't need the tight fences to keep them in like the dog...
4hfarms
Well-known member
Our Jack killed a calf a few years back. Then I saw a yote not 30 yards form him in the pasture while he grazed. Sold his whole family!
dave_shelby
Well-known member
Does that dog wander? I've tried a few discovered that they are a great way to socialize with neighbors excepting they may not be too pleased.
Farm Family
Well-known member
This is a LGD issue or certainly one that is often mentioned. She does not leave our home quarter. We have not had to move her to range land but I feel confident she would stay with her cows. If we had an issue I would not hesitate sending her cause I trust she knows her job. I am told this is the Maremma in her. Apparently Maremma's are home bodies and have strong species bonding.
We also have chickens that free range so she has enough work here she has no reason to leave is my thought. She is highly motivated to stay, never bored and loves the attention from those she cares for…chickens included. We keep a pair or two or some heifers home for her…they graze the marginal land around the yard. She would be too sad and lonely if they all left. And she has our lab. And the lab stays home too. So no roaming partner.
The bonding is so important. It means, imo, she has no desire to seek attention elsewhere. She is bonded here.
She came from working dogs. She does not have a breed in her genetics; she has proven skills and work ethic in her genetics - working dog genetics at work - working dogs is key!
Her parents were bonded to cattle and chickens. She was born in the hayshed by the cattle pastures/pens and chickens all over. I will never run a LGD that is not cattle bonded from birth. Not for this cattle based operation. I feel there is an importance to this, if they bond or know sheep for example their hearts will want sheep not cattle. That instinct does not, imo change.
She also stayed with her parents until she was 12 weeks old. She learned to work early, she learned to observe, she learned the mannerisms of the herd she was growing up to defend. She watched humans work that herd. She watched her parents defend that herd. Imperative in her training.
I did a lot of boundary work with her. And not just a barbed fence line…she learned "her environment". She knows her land, her cattle, her cats, her dog, her chickens, her equipment, her buildings, and her people. This dog is not what I would call "people social". She is not mean by any means but she has no desire to be petted by "strangers", she is a tad suspicious to new things and she prefers to observe from a distance. So given her personality she has little desire to explore other properties, species, or people. It keeps her home.
I recommend research on LGDs. Cattle and LGDs is a bit "new" or less studied I found. Many think a LGD in a cattle herd desensitizes the herd to canine predation. We have not found this, the cows know a predator, know the lab, know a guardian dog. I think there would be a challenge with a guardian and herder…those working dogs have different roles and could be in conflict…would be an interesting training focus for sure. A female I am told tends to be more maternal which helps suppress the wandering. In all training there are challenges but start how you want to finish, do your research and I highly recommend with LGDs bonding is most important.
dave_shelby
Well-known member
Appreciate the information. My daughter lost two sheep this week and accordingly she wants to find some solution
farmerjan
Well-known member
@dave_shelby ; As I said, an LGD is a great asset in certain cases. One thing different breeds have different tendencies. Great Pyrenees are wanderers... if they see it, they consider it their territory... they are known both in the LGD and other communities to wander... Anatolians are perhaps the most focused on THEIR herd... including the humans and seem to be a bit more aggressive to strangers.... The Maremma's seem to be more inbetween... BUT.... the proximity to other neighbors has a lot to do with them staying put.
Everything that @Farm Family has said is 1000% spot on....
I totally agree that the bonding is imperative... learning that their herd is their focus is the trick. The biggest difference is that here in Va we have more close neighbors than I think they do in her area of Canada..... and with that brings more problems... like you said about "meeting the neighbors".....
For us, it became a conflict of people reporting the "neglect" of the dog living with the animals... and some do not want to get educated on the whole purpose and life of an LGD.... and needing escape proof fences when a predator is outside the fence but too close in the LGD's perception of protection of it's "herd". The donkey just does a better job of fitting in and no one is wanting to get too close to her and her big teeth even though she is a sweetheart and loves rubs and stuff....
Everything that @Farm Family has said is 1000% spot on....
I totally agree that the bonding is imperative... learning that their herd is their focus is the trick. The biggest difference is that here in Va we have more close neighbors than I think they do in her area of Canada..... and with that brings more problems... like you said about "meeting the neighbors".....
For us, it became a conflict of people reporting the "neglect" of the dog living with the animals... and some do not want to get educated on the whole purpose and life of an LGD.... and needing escape proof fences when a predator is outside the fence but too close in the LGD's perception of protection of it's "herd". The donkey just does a better job of fitting in and no one is wanting to get too close to her and her big teeth even though she is a sweetheart and loves rubs and stuff....
Farm Family
Well-known member
Well she will have more LGD resources with a sheep bond. Sheep typically have page wire too so may assist that wandering/containment Issue. I hear some of the Pyrenees bred need electricity on the wire. They have a little more of a wandering soul
I am happy with the Maremma Kuvasz temperament or maybe it is just this pup/dog. Good luck…lots of information out there.farmerjan
Well-known member
I have a friend in TN that has both a couple of LGD's with his sheep and he has 2 herding dogs, Border collies... Had the BC's before they got the LGD....
He has to move the LGD's ( he now has 2) into a small field with animals he is not "working " or they go ballistic with the BC's doing any herding... even though the dogs get along for the most part... they do not spend time together in any field unless he is present with them to prevent conflict of interests arising... He also does not allow the BC's access to the sheep and the LGD's when they are doing a rotational grazing move or the sheep coming to the barn for something like sorting or something.... one or the other is doing it's job at a time... never together...
He has to move the LGD's ( he now has 2) into a small field with animals he is not "working " or they go ballistic with the BC's doing any herding... even though the dogs get along for the most part... they do not spend time together in any field unless he is present with them to prevent conflict of interests arising... He also does not allow the BC's access to the sheep and the LGD's when they are doing a rotational grazing move or the sheep coming to the barn for something like sorting or something.... one or the other is doing it's job at a time... never together...
farmerjan
Well-known member
@Farm Family , sounds like you have a wonderful dog... so nice to hear of and know that you have a fit for your situation and environment...
Don't know of the Kuvasz breed around here.
There are several with Great Pyrs and there are constant problems with them wandering..... miles away from "home" in several cases....
They certainly are a different sort of dog and do not respond to the same type of training that a "pet dog" does.... they are very, very smart and think for themselves and do their job the way they see it needing done....
Don't know of the Kuvasz breed around here.
There are several with Great Pyrs and there are constant problems with them wandering..... miles away from "home" in several cases....
They certainly are a different sort of dog and do not respond to the same type of training that a "pet dog" does.... they are very, very smart and think for themselves and do their job the way they see it needing done....
Farm Family
Well-known member
Where I am yes I back on crown land (on the one side) and our neighbours are a bit away as land is divided mostly 160 acres (quarter sections) but there are interspersed acreages and we have campers/tourists/hunters travelling through.
That said we have a new acreage owner right across the road from us. Had to have the "talk". They have a fenced yard but their two dogs keep getting out. Our LGD has not engaged YET and kids stepped in two days ago to "save" an incident. LGD independent thinker but follows a firm "fall back" or stern "leave it" most all times. This is bonding. Another must…you can't help her if she is in the firing line, if you get my drift. You can't diffuse a situation if she won't listen. Told them keep your dogs home cause she will not ask twice, she warns and she expects action that they leave, she has zero desire to meet or play and we may not be here to assist and in that situation she makes her own decisions. She is a working dog and very job orientated…this is not a sometimes thing. It is always. I explained that the previous owners had a dog that stayed in…her expectations are that…their line her line! No problems. So we will see jury still out on this challenge.
Like a cow she has a space bubble, that bubble is big or small depending on her assessment of the situation. But agreed an LGD is not for everyone and I know people with donkeys, donkeys and LGDs, and some run pack LGDs. They are a valuable tool but it is a full year of daily training and commitment, another year plus of guidance.
Farm Family
Well-known member
Thanks we are liking her and it is working. I am not a fan of the Great Pyrenees either…I find or have experienced they are wandering souls. They also have known reputations so when labeled by owners and non working parents as having Pyrs in the mix that suddenly you have a working dog and that is not the case.
The Kuvasz is a Hungarian LGD breed…during war times they were almost exterminated to the point of extinction. They garnered a reputation of protecting their farms at all costs. Kind of a neat research aspect of that breed. We had never heard of them before this pup either.
Farm Family
Well-known member
Yeah I would imagine…your friend is handling it correct from what I know and have garnered from the working mindset of an LGD. Specific jobs and one has to keep those role specific and defined.
We remove our LGD when the vet comes…some treatments and reactions from her cows and that additional handling (people and cows) would be too stressful for her to witness.
Ky hills
Well-known member
That was my experience with Great Pyrenees too. They worked great as long as they were in the field. My male Pyr was a Houdini when it came to getting out of somewhere. You said it right, they carry their territory with them wherever they go. The last time mine went roaming 3 of them a male and 2 females were gone for several days and we later heard that they were spotted on a road over 10 miles away. I gave up on them after that and found them a new home. I kept one of their pups that didn't get sold and he stayed around pretty good, and was a great guard dog for our property in that he turned absolutely vicious towards all people but us after an apparent tangle with prowlers.
Once after that, I went to the barn one morning and found him and my border collie standing by the chain link gate at the front and a huge stick like walking stick was lodged in the gate. I think somebody had tried to get in the barn and took that big stick to fight him off and were unsuccessful.
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