Cow Frame Size, interseeded clover year 2 and some pictures

[talldog]

By reducing frame, ussually you reduce muscle and bone as well. The cattle will be a bit more calving ease, which in turn will be flatter sided. You can reduce frame and keep all the above, but it is harder than one would think.

We must understand the market we sell into before you go and change your plan. If the commercial feeder calf buyers/feeders don't want smaller framed cattle to feed and that is your market, you better not go to small as they either won't buy from you or they will discount you heavily. Sure you may be able to run more cows on your ground if they are smaller, but how will that help you if you can't find a buyer!

I like a 5.5 to 6 frame cow, and our bull buyers like to buy bulls that are 5.5 to 7 frame bulls. By having cows that are this size, we can hit all the frame sizes needed. It used to be the bigger bulls sold better, but now the commercial cattlemen are extremely smart and go after more than just frame. it seems like they like the 6 frame bulls with gobs of body and muscle. We used to have ring buyers and now they pretty much all have their bulls picked out before the sale and only bid on those certain bulls.

The feedlots we deal with don't want small frame calves to feed, but then again, they don't want real large ones either. The real large one take to long to kill and will weigh 1500 lbs or so, while the small ones get to fat to early and have to small of a carcass, while not gaining as much as they want either plus they have to high of a yield grade.

We buy lots of replacement heifers on order from our bull customers for other buyers around the country and it seems they all want good looking cattle that are deep bodied and are about 5.5 to 6 frame heifers. They will pay a huge premium on this type of heifer if she is good over the smaller ones.


Think of it this way - A few years ago their was a meat processing plant that began and was killing quite a few head a day and was very efficient in doing so, but they went broke because they didn't have anywhere to go with the meat. I believe we need to know our market and sell into it instead of trying to create a new market, as we all don't have the time or money to do so.

Very well put !! :wave:

 

[SRBeef]

A couple points:

1) I don't really know what I'm talking about here - just learning.

2) One thing about sell to the enduser is that he doesn't really care what color the hide was - it's what it tastes like and the consistency (tender or tough to cut) coming off of the grill that counts.

3) Using a different breed bull to produce terminal calves seems like it would prevent me from keeping heifers if I want a replacement or to increase numbers. Again calving ease is my number one requirement. A good CE EPD Hereford bull on a Hereford cow is about as calving ease as you can get, or so it seems to me so far. I am and probably always will be a one-bull operation. I want the ability to select and keep my own replacement/expansion heifers. So I'll stick with pure Hereford and try to optimize my beef and costs from them.

4) I also think there are advantages to a uniform calf crop.

[I will try to add a picture of some of this springs T21 calves although I have had trouble trying to add an attachment photo here. It is much easier and would probably encourage more pictures if they can be uploaded as an attachment rather than having to go to ranchers.net or another third site. jmho. attachment failed, will have to go to ranchers.]

5) This is definitely not the right approach for everyone. If your buyers want bigger fraame cattle then you produce it for them - or they will go to someone who will.

I do appreciate the comment about the earlier/younger harvested cattle having smaller steaks. But there is a certain market segment that WANTS smaller steaks. High quality but smaller. Again I'm not an expert in this area and time will tell. However on the "Best Steak" thread elsewhere on this site, there are several comments about best tasting steaks coming from yearling heifers. I would imagine those to be smaller size steaks also.

By the way, in my post above, by "delivery" I also mean "availability".
Jim

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Dun & BGR - I totally agree.
Willow - you can go with the Kit P philosophy - that's your choice. Everyone has to produce what they can sell & what they are comfortable with.
I have a totally different market - purebred breeding stock - cows average about a 5.5-6.5 frame 1600#. I sold 7 lots (4 c/c pairs, 2 yearlings & a calf) this spring for what a "small cow" producer can get for 35 small frame 400# weaned calves. And, I still have all my steers to sell that are high medium to low large size calves, last year weighing an average of 820# when I sold them at $1/lb, no shrink, weighed over my scales. So we all produce what we think we can NET the most $$$$. And, let's not forget - we need to raise what best fits our ENVIRONMENT. I'm in the beef business to make $$$$.
In SRbeef's case - he has his market & is "fine-tuning" it.

Going back to the small cow vs larger cow: For an example, if a small cow produces a calf that weighs 500# after preconditioning and they get $1.25, that's $625. In my case, 820 x $1/lb = $820. That's $195 difference. And, with the dock for small frame calves, I do not think this is an unreasonable example.
I'm not going to nit-pick - but there are very few products used that we need to know the weight - deworming is about the only thing I can think of.

 

[angie1]

What is your market SRB? Are you selling replacement heifers? Are you selling your steers through the sale barn or directly to consumers as a 1/2 or whole? Maybe you said this, and I didn't see. At any rate, I think your cattle look outstanding ~ you have a lot to be proud of there!! :clap:

 

[edrsimms]

"Typically the traditional English based breeds are a smaller type animal and the continentals are larger, but with todays type cattle, the continentals have come down in size and the English have gone up. You can find smaller framed good cattle in most breeds, especially Angus (red or black) and Hereford. To me as long as the cow is deep bodied and easy keeping, and carry good muscle, it shouldn't matter what they weigh".

I think you are right on track with the frame score issue. There are some posts up here that are just incorrect like the one above. It does matter what they weigh, because the larger the cow the more hay, grass and everything they eat.
Example: Hay consumption from Oct to March 100 cows
1200 lb cow moderate milking ability frame score 5-6 vs a 1500 lb cow moderate milking ability frame 6+

1200 lb cow x 3% = 36 lbs
36 x 30 x 6 = 6480 lbs x 100 cows = 648,000 or 324T
At $100 / ton this is $32,400
1200 lb cow avg WW = 600 lbs
600 x 0.96 = $576.00

vs a 1500 lb cow moderate milking ability frame 6+
1500 lb cow x 3% = 45 lbs
45 x 30 x 6 = 8100 lbs x 100 cows = 810,000 or 405T
At $100/ton this is $40,500
1500 lb cow avg WW = 650 lbs
650 x 0.86 = $559.00

The weight of that broodcow does matter because just on hay consumption alone that heavier cow is the big loser. Hay was used as an example because for most operation winter feed is the largest cost. This shows an 8000 dollar savings by just owning cows wwith smaller frame scores

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

edr - we can all come up with fifty different formulas - but lets be fair, you have a 1200# cow producing 50% of her wt and a 1500# cow producing 43%. If you refigure it at a 50%, than with your scenario, the smaller cow is making a $1000 profit on 100 cows ($10/cow).
But, a 600# WW is a good weight - nothing wrong with that. I cannot see running cows that give you 400# WW - and that's what a lot of producers have.

Back to SRbeef - sounds like you have a good plan, go for it.

 

[BRG]

Just so you guys know, I am not trying to fight, just stating my opinion.

"Typically the traditional English based breeds are a smaller type animal and the continentals are larger, but with todays type cattle, the continentals have come down in size and the English have gone up. You can find smaller framed good cattle in most breeds, especially Angus (red or black) and Hereford. To me as long as the cow is deep bodied and easy keeping, and carry good muscle, it shouldn't matter what they weigh".

I think you are right on track with the frame score issue. There are some posts up here that are just incorrect like the one above. It does matter what they weigh, because the larger the cow the more hay, grass and everything they eat.
Example: Hay consumption from Oct to March 100 cows
1200 lb cow moderate milking ability frame score 5-6 vs a 1500 lb cow moderate milking ability frame 6+

1200 lb cow x 3% = 36 lbs
36 x 30 x 6 = 6480 lbs x 100 cows = 648,000 or 324T
At $100 / ton this is $32,400
1200 lb cow avg WW = 600 lbs
600 x 0.96 = $576.00

vs a 1500 lb cow moderate milking ability frame 6+
1500 lb cow x 3% = 45 lbs
45 x 30 x 6 = 8100 lbs x 100 cows = 810,000 or 405T
At $100/ton this is $40,500
1500 lb cow avg WW = 650 lbs
650 x 0.86 = $559.00

The weight of that broodcow does matter because just on hay consumption alone that heavier cow is the big loser. Hay was used as an example because for most operation winter feed is the largest cost. This shows an 8000 dollar savings by just owning cows wwith smaller frame scores

You might be correct with your formula, BUT small framed calves will not look as good and have as good of performance, nor will they have the muscle needed to have a low yield grade. So the marketing end is all blown out of wack. Yes lighter weight calves ussually sell better,(last year most wasn't the 10 cent difference in your formula) but if you notice the lighter ones selling good are still ussually the larger framed lighter calves that are a bit younger, they are not the frame score 4 calves that are selling better, in fact they are discounting them if they are framey enough.

Plus, I am not saying that you need to have a 1500 lbs cow, but 1000 to 1100 may not be big enough. Like I said earlier I think we need to have a happy medium. I think the 1300 lbs cow in average condition is probably about right in most enviroments.

 

[SRBeef]

What is your market SRB? Are you selling replacement heifers? Are you selling your steers through the sale barn or directly to consumers as a 1/2 or whole? Maybe you said this, and I didn't see. At any rate, I think your cattle look outstanding ~ you have a lot to be proud of there!! :clap:

I am selling split halves direct to endusers. Processed, USDA inspected so can be sold across state lines. Split halves end up with all cuts and about 110-120 lb in 3-4 boxes which is affordable for many people and fits in most freezers or they can share with someone else. I have a standard cutting sheet so far.

If the steaks from yearlings are smaller then maybe I will go a bit thicker on the cuts (1.25 or 1.50" rather than the 1.0" I do now which cooks nicely on the grill in a reasonable time).

Thank you for the kind words.

Jim

 

[Willow Springs]

What ends up happening when you use a large termianl bulls on the small cows you don;t get that happy medium between the 2. You get a spread of all 3 types. The ones so large the feeders don;t want them and the small ones that they don;t want either. Using bulls and cows of the size that you want for selling purposes in no way prevents you form taking advantage of heterosis

I disagree somewhat again with this statement. You are correct if the terminal bull that you are using is one of the Heinz 57's there seen to be in a lot of the terminal breeds today and your cow herd has not had selection pressure to reduce mature weights for several generations. Becasue of the continuous outcrossing and injection of other breeds there is a lack of consistency. By using bulls that are more homgenous in their trait and type selection; ie: fullbloods that have been selected for performance, and having more consistency in your cow herd, the extremes would be muted. In fact I would think that becasue of the lack of consistency in most cow herds breeding two animals with the same frame would still give you a wide range in type and frame score.

Willow - you can go with the Kit P philosophy - that's your choice. Everyone has to produce what they can sell & what they are comfortable with.
I have a totally different market - purebred breeding stock - cows average about a 5.5-6.5 frame 1600#. I sold 7 lots (4 c/c pairs, 2 yearlings & a calf) this spring for what a "small cow" producer can get for 35 small frame 400# weaned calves. And, I still have all my steers to sell that are high medium to low large size calves, last year weighing an average of 820# when I sold them at $1/lb, no shrink, weighed over my scales. So we all produce what we think we can NET the most $$$$. And, let's not forget - we need to raise what best fits our ENVIRONMENT. I'm in the beef business to make $$$$.
In SRbeef's case - he has his market & is "fine-tuning" it.

Going back to the small cow vs larger cow: For an example, if a small cow produces a calf that weighs 500# after preconditioning and they get $1.25, that's $625. In my case, 820 x $1/lb = $820. That's $195 difference. And, with the dock for small frame calves, I do not think this is an unreasonable example.
I'm not going to nit-pick - but there are very few products used that we need to know the weight - deworming is about the only thing I can think of.

No talk of expenses in your statement, or the fact that you could have raised more of the 500# calves with the same resources as the 820# calf. Growth & maintenance are not free, every pound of calf produced has a cost as does every pound of cow that you are feeding 365 days a year to maintain. The PB market is a niche market and comes with it's on set of expenses which you know all about; most people have no idea the cost they just see the big numbers at the sales.

 

[edrsimms]

edr - we can all come up with fifty different formulas - but lets be fair, you have a 1200# cow producing 50% of her wt and a 1500# cow producing 43%. If you refigure it at a 50%, than with your scenario, the smaller cow is making a $1000 profit on 100 cows ($10/cow).
But, a 600# WW is a good weight - nothing wrong with that. I cannot see running cows that give you 400# WW - and that's what a lot of producers have.

Ok let's be fair:
A 1200 lb cow with a FS of 5.5 to 6 moderate milker that will wean a 660 lb calf at 205 days (I have many of these types) (55% of her body weight) (My actual WW's for 2009 were Hfr calves 640; steer calves 680 with a few in the 700's and even a few in the 800's)
A 1500 lb cow with a FS of 6-7 moderate milker that won't wean a 660 lb calf at 205 days (I have a few of these left unfortunately). (these cows wean calves 40+% of their body weight) we lose money on these cows. Why, because it costs more $$ to maintain these cows throughout the year and they produce less lbs of calf.

If I have 100 cows and 50 of them are 1200 lb cows and 50 of them are 1500 lb cows, which group will eat the most hay, forage, etc? Those 1500 lb cows are eating more, costing me more money and producing less
As you bring the FS down you can actually produce more pounds of beef because those 1200 lb cows eat less and are easier to maintain, so I could actually run 130-- 1200 lb cows in the same area I run 50(1200's) and 50 (1500's).
If I can gain 30 more cows at the 1200 lb range that will increase my profits even more.
My 1200 lb cows eat less and produce more and those heavier cows are a loser, period.
The savings are in maintenance for these cows as I stated above-- a $8000.00 on hay alone plus another 18K, because I was able to produce more calves on the same area by not using 1500 lb cows

so to be fair Jeanne, I can raise 130 calves as long as I use 1200 lb cows instead of 1500 lb cows

100 of the 1500 lb cows that raise calves that weigh 600 lb will Gross 54K

130 of the 1200 lb cows that can raise 660lb calves will Gross 77K

Any cow that weaned a 400 lb calf would be at the stockyard-- that is pathetic

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

A 1500 lb cow with a FS of 6-7 moderate milker that won't wean a 660 lb calf at 205 days (I have a few of these left unfortunately). (these cows wean calves 40+% of their body weight) we lose money on these cows. Why, because it costs more $$ to maintain these cows throughout the year and they produce less lbs of calf.

That's your problem - you have the wrong kind of cows. I would be losing money also if I had 1500# cows weaning 40%. That is a CULL cow.

Willow - I still disagree with your statement about frame size. We (ME) are not talking about mongrels breeding mongrels. If you have 4-5 frame cows & you use a 6.5-7 frame bull, you will get all the range of frames. It's been proven time & time again. Many people use larger frame bulls on their small cows - which is a smart thing to do. But, you will get inconsistant calf crop.
If you have a breed of cows bred to a "like' framed bull, the calf crop will be pretty darn consistant with only a few outlyers.

 

[edrsimms]

No Jeanne -- you mentioned that most of the people here were weaning calves in the 400 lb range--Not I.
So that is your can of worms you opened. I just re-emphasized that any cow that can only wean a 400 lb calf should be at the stockyard--- we dont have any cows like that.

Willow - I still disagree with your statement about frame size. We (ME) are not talking about mongrels breeding mongrels. If you have 4-5 frame cows & you use a 6.5-7 frame bull, you will get all the range of frames. It's been proven time & time again.

"Many people use larger frame bulls on their small cows - which is a smart thing to do". But, you will get inconsistant calf crop.

I disagree with this statement entirely--- NO ONE breeds frame score 7 bulls to little bitty ole 4-5 frame cows. And it is NOT a smart thing to do. Your advice is sketchy.
Jeanne, What is your herd average on Frame Score?


If you have a breed of cows bred to a "like' framed bull, the calf crop will be pretty darn consistant with only a few outlyers.[/quote]

 

[cypressfarms]

Really good thread!

I, like others, would like to reduce the size of my herd. The difference, though, is that I would like to be in the 950 - 1050 pound range for cows. Down here smaller does seem to work better. I have some issues with some of the above comments:

If a cow raises a 600 pound calf she will have to consume "X" amount of forage. X depends on her feed conversion efficiency, among other things. If you have a small frame cow that weans a 600 pound calf and a larger framed cow that weans off a 600 pound calf - theoretically both cows should consume the same amount of forage. Feed conversion comes in here. Is the small cow more efficient, so uses less inputs? Does the bigger cow that weans a smaller % of her weight consume less than her smaller counterpart? The big problem here, is that it is virtually impossible to measure the amount of forage a cows eats (at least for me). How could I possibly measure how much grass each cow is eating. I know, you can do "field trials" where the feed and hay is calculated, but is this a fair comparison when you normally ask the cow to perform on grass. Does the moma have the same efficiency on feed and hay than she does on grass? Every time I discuss this topic I wind up asking more and more questions, that can probably never be answered.

Interesting to contemplate though.

 

[edrsimms]

Really good thread!

I, like others, would like to reduce the size of my herd. The difference, though, is that I would like to be in the 950 - 1050 pound range for cows. Down here smaller does seem to work better. I have some issues with some of the above comments:

"If a cow raises a 600 pound calf she will have to consume "X" amount of forage. X depends on her feed conversion efficiency, among other things".

Rule of thumb is 3% of her body weight unless she is 60 days to calving then it drops some. If you use 3% then there is a BIG difference between the efficiency of a 1200 lb cow and a 1500 lb cow (36 & 45lbs) especially when you factor in what size calf she is weaning. I believe 1500 is too big and I think 1000 is too small. Moderate Frame scores seem to work best hence 1200. My herd average right now is 1248 lbs and I can live with that, but 1200 is a goal we will continue to work on.

"If you have a small frame cow that weans a 600 pound calf and a larger framed cow that weans off a 600 pound calf - theoretically both cows should consume the same amount of forage".

This is just not true

"Feed conversion comes in here. Is the small cow more efficient, so uses less inputs? Does the bigger cow that weans a smaller % of her weight consume less than her smaller counterpart"?

The smaller cow is more efficient if she weans 50% of her body weight and the larger cow that weans a smaller % of her body wt consumes MORE but produces less and that is why she is cull material.

The big problem here, is that it is virtually impossible to measure the amount of forage a cows eats (at least for me). How could I possibly measure how much grass each cow is eating. I know, you can do "field trials" where the feed and hay is calculated, but is this a fair comparison when you normally ask the cow to perform on grass.


This already has been done decades ago -- 3%

Does the moma have the same efficiency on feed and hay than she does on grass? Every time I discuss this topic I wind up asking more and more questions, that can probably never be answered.



A cow will consume 3% of her body weight of someting per day

Interesting to contemplate though.

 

[cypressfarms]

The smaller cow is more efficient if she weans 50% of her body weight and the larger cow that weans a smaller % of her body wt consumes MORE but produces less and that is why she is cull material.

The big problem here, is that it is virtually impossible to measure the amount of forage a cows eats (at least for me). How could I possibly measure how much grass each cow is eating. I know, you can do "field trials" where the feed and hay is calculated, but is this a fair comparison when you normally ask the cow to perform on grass.

This already has been done decades ago -- 3%

Does the moma have the same efficiency on feed and hay than she does on grass? Every time I discuss this topic I wind up asking more and more questions, that can probably never be answered.

A cow will consume 3% of her body weight of someting per day

Interesting to contemplate though.

I can see that we wont agree. Your comments look great on paper, but this isn't paper. I'm talking about a cows ability to wean a calf. Not every cow will consume 3% of her weight, and if you think that they consume the same 3% whether it's hay or grass or feed your dead wrong. Just differing types of grass, with different protein content, will cause a cow to eat more or less. The basic ability of a cow to transform forage to pounds of calf is the "root issue" being discussed. Not all cows will convert forage equally, hence a difference in consumption. That small cow that weans a higher percentage of her body weight will consume more forage, the calf isn't going to magically gain pounds. Inputs and outputs, they are both important.

 

[dun]

A cow will consume 3% of her body weight of someting per day

If that were the case all cows would have the same efficiency at converting feed. If that was the case a smaller cow would be cheaper to feed, but the 3% is just a ballpark SWAG that's been thrown around for years as a reference point. It isn;t graven in stone. Every cow has a basic amount of feed just to maintain themselves. But not all cows have the same percentage.

 

[SRBeef]

I find myself coming back to a human analogy -

Does a 200 lb person eat more than a 150 lb person. If both are not pregnant and not nursing it seems to me that the simple answer is YES.

It just takes more calories etc to maintain constant weight on a larger person than it does a smaller person.

Yes there will be differences between individuals we can all point to. However if we have two groups of people, 100 150 lb people and 100 200 lb people, there will be a significant difference in the food requirements of the 2 groups if they maintain their bodies' normal constant weight.

 

[dun]

I find myself coming back to a human analogy -

Does a 200 lb person eat more than a 150 lb person. If both are not pregnant and not nursing it seems to me that the simple answer is YES.

It just takes more calories etc to maintain constant weight on a larger person than it does a smaller person.

Yes there will be differences between individuals we can all point to. However if we have two groups of people, 100 150 lb people and 100 200 lb people, there will be a significant difference in the food requirements of the 2 groups if they maintain their bodies' normal constant weight.

And yet there will be some of those 200 lbers that don;t require as much as some of the 150 lbers

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Think about what a 150 lb person looks like, if you had a cow like that you would call her pencil gutted. I don't think size makes a lot of difference as long as it is in reason. I don't really want 800 lb cow but a 1000 to 1400 and even 1500 is allright with me. They got to raise a decent calf and be able to do it ever year.

 

[angie1]

I am selling split halves direct to endusers. Processed, USDA inspected so can be sold across state lines. Split halves end up with all cuts and about 110-120 lb in 3-4 boxes which is affordable for many people and fits in most freezers or they can share with someone else. I have a standard cutting sheet so far.

If the steaks from yearlings are smaller then maybe I will go a bit thicker on the cuts (1.25 or 1.50" rather than the 1.0" I do now which cooks nicely on the grill in a reasonable time).

Then your goal is a good one for all the reasons that you state. Tried marketing a straight large breed here a few years ago, and it caused more than a little whining and bucking over price, amount of meat and size of cuts. People are used to the moderate sized animals (except those that eat holsteins), and they were not thrilled about the change. It wasn't practical for this area, and had to be changed the very next year or repeat customers would have been lost.

Also ~ not everyone owns a few hundred acres of cross fenced pasture, and as much again in hay and corn. As you and others have stated, feed costs for bred cows, replacement and steers to finish has to be considered.

Your plan is very well thought out for the goals, resources and herd you have, as well as your market.