Corn Gas

[greybeard]

Natural gas is a much better fuel than straight gasoline, E10, E85, or E100 (100% ethanol) . It has to do with the energy content and more importantly, the stoichiometric efficiency of each. For gasoline, it has a value of 14.7 which means under optimum conditions, modern auto/truck engines need and use 14.7 parts air to every part gasoline. The amt of fuel in this value is 6.8% for gasoline. This, is the standard benchmark that has been set for decades--14.7:1, because gasoline was the primary fuel for so long, and this is the target that other fuels try to meet or beat. (BTW--No engine can burn it's fuel/air mix at 14.7:1 under all conditions--it is changed via inputs from either carburetor throttle plate or fuel injection controls to keep from burning up pistons)

Any fuel that has a lower stoichiometric rating, is using more fuel (by mass) to air ratio to achieve the same energy output.
Diesel is very close to gasoline. 14.6 air to 1 part diesel (14.6:1)

Ethanol in E-10 blends (90% gasoline-10% ethanol) which is what most gasolines sold today are, is rated at 12.7:1 stoichiometric value. The engines are running richer than they were with 100% gasoline. Poorer fuel economy than would be possible with straight gasoline.

E85 (85% ethanol) gets a 9.8:1 stoichi rating.
Pure Ethanol has a 9.00:1 stochi but no internal combustion engine can start on 100% ethanol.
Natural gas on the other hand, has a 17.2:1 stoichi rating, better than any other fuel commonly available today.
Propane has a 15.5:1 stoichi rating. Better than gasoline or E blends, but not as good as NG.

Hydrogen, should it ever be perfected for fuel cells in vehicles, beats them all with a 34:1 rating. (I won't see it happen in my lifetime)
And for illustration purposes, (or for you few with Stanley steamers still out there) wood has a 6.1:1 Stoichi rating. Terrible, but it's cheap enough.

 

[Angus Cowman]

Sky, I can't believe you would put corn in the same class as God, and faith in our savior. And A.C. come on man get real. Why did the farmers tear up good pasture and hay fields to plant corn?? Why did the farmers lease up every piece of ground for a premium price and plant corn on it?? The ethanol mandate was great for the farmer, and bad for the consumer.

because the prices went up but like everything else including hay, like around here last yr there was plenty of grass and people north and west of here had no hay so every Tom, Dick and Harry went out and bought a hay baler and started baling anything they could find to mow and thought they were going to get rich and this yr you can't give hay away
I brushogged over 2000 bales of hay ground this fall because I sure wasn't going to spend the money to bale it and not be able to sell it
a lot of these guys who gave outrageous rent prices for crop ground will be belly up in a few yrs or cut way back
How much corn do you grow High? if you grow corn I guess you put millions in the bank the last few yrs
if you don't grow any then I guess you have NO idea at all what you are talking about as far as the input cost for growing corn is then
so come on High get real

 

[TexasBred]

Sorry Chris, there is a basic principle called supply and demand. When you fix the demand by mandates, it does something to the supply. You can't argue against that. It is a basic tenet of economics.

Then why did so many ethanol plants shut down when corn prices went so high? The "mandate" was still there but so was "demand".

 

[HDRider]

Sorry Chris, there is a basic principle called supply and demand. When you fix the demand by mandates, it does something to the supply. You can't argue against that. It is a basic tenet of economics.

Then why did so many ethanol plants shut down when corn prices went so high? The "mandate" was still there but so was "demand".

Corn Demand
Ethanol will consume about 42 percent of the 10.78 billion bushels of corn in this year's harvest, the USDA said.

At least 19 plants have been idled since June because of production costs and the supply glut, according to the Renewable Fuels Association, a Washington-based trade group.

 

[hurleyjd]

Natural gas is a much better fuel than straight gasoline, E10, E85, or E100 (100% ethanol) . It has to do with the energy content and more importantly, the stoichiometric efficiency of each. For gasoline, it has a value of 14.7 which means under optimum conditions, modern auto/truck engines need and use 14.7 parts air to every part gasoline. The amt of fuel in this value is 6.8% for gasoline. This, is the standard benchmark that has been set for decades--14.7:1, because gasoline was the primary fuel for so long, and this is the target that other fuels try to meet or beat. (BTW--No engine can burn it's fuel/air mix at 14.7:1 under all conditions--it is changed via inputs from either carburetor throttle plate or fuel injection controls to keep from burning up pistons)

Any fuel that has a lower stoichiometric rating, is using more fuel (by mass) to air ratio to achieve the same energy output.
Diesel is very close to gasoline. 14.6 air to 1 part diesel (14.6:1)

Ethanol in E-10 blends (90% gasoline-10% ethanol) which is what most gasolines sold today are, is rated at 12.7:1 stoichiometric value. The engines are running richer than they were with 100% gasoline. Poorer fuel economy than would be possible with straight gasoline.

E85 (85% ethanol) gets a 9.8:1 stoichi rating.
Pure Ethanol has a 9.00:1 stochi but no internal combustion engine can start on 100% ethanol.
Natural gas on the other hand, has a 17.2:1 stoichi rating, better than any other fuel commonly available today.
Propane has a 15.5:1 stoichi rating. Better than gasoline or E blends, but not as good as NG.

Hydrogen, should it ever be perfected for fuel cells in vehicles, beats them all with a 34:1 rating. (I won't see it happen in my lifetime)
And for illustration purposes, (or for you few with Stanley steamers still out there) wood has a 6.1:1 Stoichi rating. Terrible, but it's cheap enough.

You may see it if you live another year or so.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-hy ... 07512.html

 

[greybeard]

..."or so".

Fueling stations for H are non-existent.

 

[john250]

Honda built the Greensburg, IN plant with the intention of producing Hydrogen Civics. I don't know they've produced even one, but I don't think they've disavowed the goal. There was no infrastructure of service stations when Ford started building Model T's. It seems supply follows along after demand for a fuel source.
There is now a small network of compressed natural gas suppliers. I drove by the first I had seen the other day.
That too is something new.

 

[Brute 23]

The have has CNG stations up north for a good while. I have a compressor mechanic that works for me now who use to work up north. He maintained some compressors up there for years. He said a lot of the municipalities, busses, that kind of stuff run it.

Guy I work for owns part of a freight company that runs back and forth from Houston to Dallas. Their whole fleet is CNG.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Sorry Chris, there is a basic principle called supply and demand. When you fix the demand by mandates, it does something to the supply. You can't argue against that. It is a basic tenet of economics.

Then why did so many ethanol plants shut down when corn prices went so high? The "mandate" was still there but so was "demand".

Corn Demand
Ethanol will consume about 42 percent of the 10.78 billion bushels of corn in this year's harvest, the USDA said.

At least 19 plants have been idled since June because of production costs and the supply glut, according to the Renewable Fuels Association, a Washington-based trade group.

I think this answers the question. But more broadly, we mandated ethanol use and then my understanding is that importation of ethanol is obstructed, so the impact if felt harder here.

I think the hardest of concepts, the ones with all the moving parts will still have basic natural laws that apply. Like the law of gravity. If it goes up, and stays inside this atmosphere, it will come down. You can try to delay this coming down with engines and wings, but you still come down.

These economists that claim you can spend your way out of recession, are pumping fuel into a plane they are trying to keep in the air forever. The fuel will run out. If you're on the run way, not a problem. If you are at 10,000 feet- not a good thing.

Same with trying to convolute all the ethanol practices. If you pull enough of the corn supply into a wasteful practice, you will drive the market.

It all boils down to supply and demand. If you start calling 2+2=7, then yes, you can make a great argument. As long as we accept 2+2=4, then it won't add up. A few more years of this funny math taught in school and I will obviously be wrong on this.

 

[HDRider]

Not sure how I triple posted.

 

[HDRider]

U.S. ethanol production, imports and consumption (billions of gallons)

Year.....Production......Net Imports.....Stock Change.......Consumption
2012.......13.30 ..........-0.25.................0.10.................12.95

 

[HDRider]

Ignore..

 

[hurleyjd]

LNG fill up stations in Oklahoma 23 total

http://www.cnglocator.net/CNGLocationsb ... tions.html

 

[hurleyjd]

Hydrogen Highway California.

http://www.montereyherald.com/localnews ... source=rss

 

[mwj]

As large as Illinois is, there is only 1 lng station in the state according to the locator! I find that almost unreal.

 

[john250]

As large as Illinois is, there is only 1 lng station in the state according to the locator! I find that almost unreal.

There should be two dozen for Chicago and E. St. Louis alone. Or 500. I guess there is no perception among entrepreneur's of a profitable level of demand. It seems viable to me. I'm not sure why it hasn't found a market.
Whatever happened to the trucking company sponsored program to build a network of fueling stations along the interstates?

 

[TexasBred]

Unlike the "electric or hybrid" car using natural gas is feasible. Can't remember the exact number but seems San Antonio installed a over a hundred locations for hybrids to recharge batteries. None are used. Some more of the stimulus money stimulating some crony's bank account I'm sure.

As for corn....seems regardless of howmuch we plant and how good the crop is we still basically use it all. Ending inventories are always about the same....sometimes a bit down, sometimes a bit up.