Composite herd bull?

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townfarmer

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What do people think of using an F1 composite as a herd bull? Theoretically it would seem easier to use an F1 bull over a pure cow herd than using a purebred bull over F1 females to achieve a 3way cross. Easier in the sense of having to buy or breed your own F1 females. My Grandfather had a commercial hereford herd that he occasionaly crossed with angus and santa gertrudis bulls. The idea of a using a cross bred bull to him was lunacy. I'm assuming attitudes must be changing as I've noticed several composite bulls being listed at the sales of many reputable seedstock breeders.

Just out of interest these murray grey/gelbvieh bulls caught my attention.

greyvieh.jpg


gel_grey_bulls.jpg


Andrew
 

novatech

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F1 cows are produced for their increase in fertility, efficiency, milk, mothering ability, and longevity. The third cross sire is chosen for efficient, early maturing terminal meat production. The bull should complement the cow and give an additional increase in heterosis.
 

ANAZAZI

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townfarmer":2o1mwrgk said:
What do people think of using an F1 composite as a herd bull? Theoretically it would seem easier to use an F1 bull over a pure cow herd than using a purebred bull over F1 females to achieve a 3way cross. Easier in the sense of having to buy or breed your own F1 females. My Grandfather had a commercial hereford herd that he occasionaly crossed with angus and santa gertrudis bulls. The idea of a using a cross bred bull to him was lunacy. I'm assuming attitudes must be changing as I've noticed several composite bulls being listed at the sales of many reputable seedstock breeders Andrew


The reasons to have pure bull and mixed cows: the advantage the maternal heterosis provides, and the concistency from a pure bull.
Thus, a three way cross.

To acheive consistecy with an f1bull one needs purebred cows. With purebred cows there is no maternal heterosis. This esentially means that heterosis is no better than crossing only two breeds.

If consistency is no issue; please use f1 bulls at will!
 

dun

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To me it would depend on how uniform the breed composition of the cow herd is. If they're a heinz 57 a crossbred bull would just throw one more turd in the punchbowl. If they are primarily (75% of greater) of one breed then a crossbred bull might not be a bad idea to generate terminal calves.
 

brandonm_13

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Sometimes, if you have good maternal mothers, the worst thing you can do is cross them and keep a bunch of unknowns because they are F1 cows. I would rather keep cows that I know are good mothers and breed them to a bull of choice whether composite or not. Remember all these are composites (at least at one time): Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, Senepol, Brahmousin, Charbray, Chiangus, Romangus, Murray Grey, and of course any black bull that wasn't orignally black and has been bred up.
 

bigag03

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I think we need to be careful how we use the terminology. I have no problem using a composite bull (i.e. Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster), especially one that is third generation or more into that particular composite. However, I do not see the value in using a crossbred bull, specifically an F1. I consider Limflex, Balancers and any other F1 crosses that are given a fancy name as feeder calves and I would not use them in a breeding program. Even in a purebred set of cows, there will be some variation (the old addage: "there is more differences within a breed than between breeds" tends to show up in many commercial cow herds). As previously said, a crossbred bull is just adding another level of variation.
 
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townfarmer

townfarmer

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Thanks for the replies and the sharing of wisdom. I totally see the point that's been made about the benefits of F1 females. When people talk about concerns with consistancy with a composite bull's offspring; what exactly are we referring too? Size, shape, colour, growth, temperment...?

Andrew
 

alacattleman

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townfarmer":a4dn1bdl said:
Thanks for the replies and the sharing of wisdom. I totally see the point that's been made about the benefits of F1 females. When people talk about concerns with consistancy with a composite bull's offspring; what exactly are we referring too? Size, shape, colour, growth, temperment...?

Andrew
all of those.... "consistantcy". that aint bred in a F1
 

dun

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Consistancy is what makes no calf really stand out from the others. All the same color, muscle, frame, etc. You will see some bulls that all of his calves no matter what kind of cow they are from look like peas in a pod, others that look like they aren;t even related
 

3waycross

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townfarmer":1jpas35y said:
What do people think of using an F1 composite as a herd bull? Theoretically it would seem easier to use an F1 bull over a pure cow herd than using a purebred bull over F1 females to achieve a 3way cross. Easier in the sense of having to buy or breed your own F1 females. My Grandfather had a commercial hereford herd that he occasionaly crossed with angus and santa gertrudis bulls. The idea of a using a cross bred bull to him was lunacy. I'm assuming attitudes must be changing as I've noticed several composite bulls being listed at the sales of many reputable seedstock breeders.

Just out of interest these murray grey/gelbvieh bulls caught my attention.

greyvieh.jpg


gel_grey_bulls.jpg


Andrew

I am wondering what they call this cross.......Maybe.......... GRAVY'S,,,,,,Doesn't matter, I likem.
 

3waycross

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townfarmer":1n99rtpk said:
Australian wrote:
townfarmer whereabouts were the photos taken? They are a nice group of bulls.

They are photos from the Summit Gelbvieh stud in Nerrikup WA. Here's a link to their webpage of composite breeding:

http://www.summitgelbvieh.com.au/composite.html

Andrew

That's one darned fine operation they have going. What surprised me was that in their sale the black bulls averageed the least. Aparently in Australia they don't chase hide color like we do.
 

alacattleman

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3waycross":1h02qgwk said:
townfarmer":1h02qgwk said:
Australian wrote:
townfarmer whereabouts were the photos taken? They are a nice group of bulls.

They are photos from the Summit Gelbvieh stud in Nerrikup WA. Here's a link to their webpage of composite breeding:

http://www.summitgelbvieh.com.au/composite.html

Andrew

That's one darned fine operation they have going. What surprised me was that in their sale the black bulls averageed the least. Aparently in Australia they don't chase hide color like we do.
or their tails :p
 

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